Will England Choke in 2006/07 Ashes And wats your best aussieXI

[Barney Rubble]

Isn't Somerset practically an ice-rink? I wish him luck, he's gonna need it.

It looks like they're going to make it a dustbowl for this summer - they'll be playing three spinners minimum (White, Cullen, Blackwell), potentially up to five if you include the all-rounders Suppiah and Durston.

 

[mikeW]

It looks like they're going to make it a dustbowl for this summer - they'll be playing three spinners minimum (White, Cullen, Blackwell), potentially up to five if you include the all-rounders Suppiah and Durston.

White's more of a batting all-rounder these days.

 

[Richard]

Thornely's the ginger middle order batsman, yeah?

Cullen's signed for Somerset this summer - will be interesting to see how he gets on.

Somerset - bowler signed for - Somerset home ground Taunton.
Bad career move. Full-stop.
Bowlers have to learn that if they want to develop their game, they're not going to get anywhere playing for Somerset. That applies to fingerspinners even more than seamers.

 

[Richard]

anyone else think Cullen's overrated?

Yes.

 

[Richard]

It looks like they're going to make it a dustbowl for this summer - they'll be playing three spinners minimum (White, Cullen, Blackwell), potentially up to five if you include the all-rounders Suppiah and Durston.

Easier said than done. You can't just "make" dustbowls like that, you need to do some serious work with the square. And no amount of work with the pitch can do anything about the stupidly short boundaries.

 

[steds]

anyone else think Cullen's overrated?

I'll decide after I've seen him bowl.

 

[Richard]

No need - he's a fingerspinner.
Fingerspinners don't have success in Australia outside The SCG.
That's a basic fact of the modern era.

 

[marc71178]

So remind us of his record in his first season then?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Yes.

Classic Richard. Declaring a bowler overrated before he's seen him.

Anyway, Cullen isn't a world beater at this stage of his career by any means, so anyone expecting dominance will be disappointed.

He is however a very aggressive and talented young spinner, and may well turn out to be quite deadly on a turning pitch. Uses drift well and isn't afraid to go for a few runs to buy a wicket. I'm keen to see how he goes in England as well, though I'm not expecting much if he's playing on a road all the time.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

No need - he's a fingerspinner.
Fingerspinners don't have success in Australia outside The SCG.
That's a basic fact of the modern era.

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004-05/AUS_LOCAL/PC/SCORECARDS/QLD_SOA_PC_24-27FEB2005.html

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004-05/AUS_LOCAL/PC/SCORECARDS/WA_SOA_PC_03-06MAR2005.html

Bit of success there, yeah?

 

[Richard]

So remind us of his record in his first season then?

Remind us how many bowlers have had good first seasons (if you can even call taking wickets at 30.37 "good" - I'd call it more merely reasonable) then dropped away?

 

[Richard]

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004-05/AUS_LOCAL/PC/SCORECARDS/QLD_SOA_PC_24-27FEB2005.html

http://aus.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2004-05/AUS_LOCAL/PC/SCORECARDS/WA_SOA_PC_03-06MAR2005.html

Bit of success there, yeah?

I said no-one has ever had a single good game?
Sorry, where?
I said no-one has ever had consistent success in Australia outside The SCG, because it's the only square in Australia that consistently produces turners. Of course you'll get the odd one here and there elsewhere, and of course you'll get the odd instance where a fingerspinner gets a decent bag on a non-turner due to poor strokes, but you'll not get it consistently.

 

[Richard]

Classic Richard. Declaring a bowler overrated before he's seen him.

Anyway, Cullen isn't a world beater at this stage of his career by any means, so anyone expecting dominance will be disappointed.

He is however a very aggressive and talented young spinner, and may well turn out to be quite deadly on a turning pitch. Uses drift well and isn't afraid to go for a few runs to buy a wicket. I'm keen to see how he goes in England as well, though I'm not expecting much if he's playing on a road all the time.

I certainly wouldn't expect much playing at Taunton.
Even decent club players could hit the ball into the crowd there.

 

[Nate]

I said no-one has ever had a single good game?
Sorry, where?
I said no-one has ever had consistent success in Australia outside The SCG, because it's the only square in Australia that consistently produces turners. Of course you'll get the odd one here and there elsewhere, and of course you'll get the odd instance where a fingerspinner gets a decent bag on a non-turner due to poor strokes, but you'll not get it consistently.

Ahh... no you didn`t. You might think adding in words to make an arguement is pretty witty, but I don`t.

I really don`t understand how you seem to have this supreme judgement on players you`ve never seen before.

Cullen is far off being an excellent spinner, but he`s a great prospect.

 

[Richard]

If no-one ever judged someone they hadn't seen no-one would ever judge many players.
It's perfectly possible to make judgements on some players without seeing them.

 

[Richard]

Ahh... no you didn`t. You might think adding in words to make an arguement is pretty witty, but I don`t.

And that might not be what I appeared to say, but it's certainly what I meant. I know what I meant. You may not.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I said no-one has ever had a single good game?
Sorry, where?
I said no-one has ever had consistent success in Australia outside The SCG, because it's the only square in Australia that consistently produces turners. Of course you'll get the odd one here and there elsewhere, and of course you'll get the odd instance where a fingerspinner gets a decent bag on a non-turner due to poor strokes, but you'll not get it consistently.

How do you know that he didn't get those wickets on unresponsive surfaces by actually bowling well? Have you seen the games, for example? Highlights, maybe? Have you read reports which suggested he took 5/36 in the first innings with a series of long-hops smacked to deep midwicket?

Or are you just making a blind, stupid assumption about something you know absolutely nothing about?

Thought so.

 

[Richard]

Tell me, please - how does a fingerspinner get wickets on an unresponsive surface?
Poor strokes.
Nought else.
If he can't turn the ball, he can't get wickets with good bowling.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Tell me, please - how does a fingerspinner get wickets on an unresponsive surface?
Poor strokes.
Nought else.
If he can't turn the ball, he can't get wickets with good bowling.

For a start, you don't have to give the ball a massive rip to get wickets through turn. Bowling spin isn't just about beating the bat or finding the edge with turn, it's about deceiving the batsman. You can do that with small amounts of turn if you bowl well, or with flight, drift, bowling good lines, bowling to your field well, changing your pace and your length, and with variations such as an arm ball or one that goes the other way.

There are also pitches where wristspinners don't deviate the ball hugely, and good bowlers can still get wickets on them. Your above statement is equivalent to saying that a good seamer can't get wickets without swinging the ball or deviating it significantly off the pitch, when quality bowlers manage to get wickets on any sort of pitch.

 

[Richard]

Seamers cannot get wickets (consistently, against top batsmen) without deviating the ball through the air or off the pitch - it's just that quality seamers can move the ball on any surface (if it's not seaming, bowl cutters and Off-Break\Leg-Break slower-balls) and can also bowl either conventional or reverse swing depending on what state the ball is in. Swing completely takes the nature of the pitch out of the equation.
Wristspinners will turn the ball on near enough all surfaces - not always the same amount, but pretty much always.
If, by "small amounts of turn" you mean an inch or two - no, 'fraid not. No ball turning by less than a bat's width is likely to cause problems at 50-55mph, even if very full. Bowling good lines and bowling to your field is all well and good, but all it'll do is keep the runs down. Good bowlers are generally pretty good at doing this - but they also need to take wickets. Changing pace and length, too, is all well and good and neccessary for any bowler - but at 50mph stock-ball it won't get wickets by itself. You need to move it sideways. Likewise - bowling a ball that goes the other way is no use if neither the stock-ball nor the wrong-'un turns - it's just exactly the same. Variation is only of use if your stock-ball moves (or, of course, if your variation moves and your stock-ball doesn't - but that's damn unusual).
Finally - flight is all well and good, too, but you're only going to achieve 2 things with this:
Loop - the ball pitching shorter than the batsman thought when seeing it out of the hand. Very useful - but only if the ball turns as well.
Drift - almost the spinner's equivalent of swing, as turn is of seam\cut for seamers. Almost. Drift is essential for all good spinners, but unlike seamers it's only a compliment for turn. It won't get good batsmen out on it's own - because good batsmen can adjust to the ball at 50-55 as they can't adjust at 75-80.
For a spinner to get wickets, he has to turn the ball. That is simple reality. Even the like of Derek Underwood, who could quite possibly have bowled at 65-70 mph, rarely troubled batsmen when the ball wasn't turning, and as such was infinately more effective pre-covering than post-covering.