wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
Thank you. Fascinating list. Hobbs really was extraordinary.
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Will Chanderapul be considered an all time great?
- Thread starter jonbrooks
- Start date
Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
I know this is your opinion, but it's worthless I'm afraid.
indiaholic
International Captain
Meh and people do accuse Tendulkar of selfishness all the time.
indiaholic
International Captain
Oh it doesn't bother me at all. If chanders or Tendulkar or waugh feel that the batsman at the other end can survive and score a few then why not? They are better placed to judge the ability of their team mates anyways.
social
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
@ 50+ whilst carrying a rubbish lineup for much of his career
Border is regarded as an ATG for doing exactly the same thing but Chanders isn't by some
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
Shiv is Mr West Indies cricket. I for one will be shedding tears when he does retire. An absolute legend and an all-time great.
So many memories. 150 in a ODI against an excellent SA pace attack in their own conditions, the 69 ball hundred against Australia at bourda, his matchwinning hundred in the World Record chase at the ARG, 3 different stretches of 20 hours at the crease without being dismissed, unbeaten hundred against Panesar and Swann at Trent Bridge when the ball was fizzing out of the rough for the entire 2nd innings. I could go on.
So many memories. 150 in a ODI against an excellent SA pace attack in their own conditions, the 69 ball hundred against Australia at bourda, his matchwinning hundred in the World Record chase at the ARG, 3 different stretches of 20 hours at the crease without being dismissed, unbeaten hundred against Panesar and Swann at Trent Bridge when the ball was fizzing out of the rough for the entire 2nd innings. I could go on.
Yeah this whole protecting the tail business gets overstated. On the odd occasion sure you could justify not taking runs and protecting the tail but in a lot of cases it is just silly. If the bowler is that good and the batsman that bad then sooner or later he will fall anyway; you can't protect someone indefinitely. Not only that you also miss out on crucial runs sometimes. Ashwin doing that in the ongoing test match in the first innings was one of the silliest things ever.
The Battlers Prince
International Vice-Captain
SHIVNARINE CHANDERPAUL
What were his parents thinking? What a s*** of a name! I first saw Shiv in 1996 against Australia at the ‘Gabba. He walked out, no noticeably unusual walk, nothing to suggest what was to follow. He asks for guard from the ump, who nods and Shiv turns, grabs a bail and starts knocking it into the pitch at the appropriate spot. WTF. He then stands up taking in the field and turns his feet towards forward square leg and starts tapping his bat to show that he’s READY?? it was how he intended to face up! Facing almost front on to the bowler approaching him. It made me think a few times before I believed it. I thought, no this won’t work! Not against Warne. McGrath, Kasper and Reiffel. By the next day though, I was converted, opening my stance in the back yard to face my brother bowling the taped up tennis ball at me. He didn’t have a stellar series against Australia that year averaging high 40’s, but I had seen enough. He was gutsy, and a fighter. The little bastard just wouldn’t get out. As I’ve said he has one of the most unusual techniques in the game. But drop the ball a bit short to him and watch as he plies his hook or pull shot to it. Never in the league of Ponting’s but something that just sort of sneaks up on you and BAM the balls gone to the fence. The other side of Lara, Chanderpaul is more a workers batsman who never seams on top of attacks yet also never seems to give away many chances either. He had some serious medical troubles in the late 90’s and rumours were spreading as to what it might be. It turned out to be just a bone in his foot, but after some surgery he returned to his ways in the middle with the bat in hand. After Lara retired Chanderpaul has become a one man band at times, most noticeably in 2007 against England. 5 Innings, 2 centuries and 3 fifties at an average of 148. The next best West Indian average that series was Dwayne Bravo with 41. Still he carries on though, relentless in his pursuit of runs.
I’m sticking with Shivnerine Chanderpaul because the world needs a bit more crazy way of batting I think!
What were his parents thinking? What a s*** of a name! I first saw Shiv in 1996 against Australia at the ‘Gabba. He walked out, no noticeably unusual walk, nothing to suggest what was to follow. He asks for guard from the ump, who nods and Shiv turns, grabs a bail and starts knocking it into the pitch at the appropriate spot. WTF. He then stands up taking in the field and turns his feet towards forward square leg and starts tapping his bat to show that he’s READY?? it was how he intended to face up! Facing almost front on to the bowler approaching him. It made me think a few times before I believed it. I thought, no this won’t work! Not against Warne. McGrath, Kasper and Reiffel. By the next day though, I was converted, opening my stance in the back yard to face my brother bowling the taped up tennis ball at me. He didn’t have a stellar series against Australia that year averaging high 40’s, but I had seen enough. He was gutsy, and a fighter. The little bastard just wouldn’t get out. As I’ve said he has one of the most unusual techniques in the game. But drop the ball a bit short to him and watch as he plies his hook or pull shot to it. Never in the league of Ponting’s but something that just sort of sneaks up on you and BAM the balls gone to the fence. The other side of Lara, Chanderpaul is more a workers batsman who never seams on top of attacks yet also never seems to give away many chances either. He had some serious medical troubles in the late 90’s and rumours were spreading as to what it might be. It turned out to be just a bone in his foot, but after some surgery he returned to his ways in the middle with the bat in hand. After Lara retired Chanderpaul has become a one man band at times, most noticeably in 2007 against England. 5 Innings, 2 centuries and 3 fifties at an average of 148. The next best West Indian average that series was Dwayne Bravo with 41. Still he carries on though, relentless in his pursuit of runs.
I’m sticking with Shivnerine Chanderpaul because the world needs a bit more crazy way of batting I think!
I'd love to know how long Shiv plans to keep playing - it can't be much fun getting beaten so often. Would be amazing to see someone in their 40's scoring test tons. Definitely an ATG for me, with the small asterix that he really should have moved up to bat at 3 when Lara quit. His technique is as good as anyone's, and the lower order would surely prosper a little more if he was there blunting the opposition bowlers initially.
I know other great players have come in at 5 and 6, but it was usually in strong sides. I may be wrong but I'd guess Border batted at 4 (or 3?) a lot when Australia were rubbish, and at 5 more often in the later years when he had a decent side.
I know other great players have come in at 5 and 6, but it was usually in strong sides. I may be wrong but I'd guess Border batted at 4 (or 3?) a lot when Australia were rubbish, and at 5 more often in the later years when he had a decent side.
JontyPanesar
U19 Vice-Captain
Case by case...
JontyPanesar
U19 Vice-Captain
First, he is easily an ATG imo. The unorthodox technique makes that even more so. You try ripping up the textbook and developing your own solid defensive technique. I actually love watching him bat. The beauty of cricket is that there's no one way to defend, score runs, or take wickets. To watch Chanders' bat is to see how a batsman levers his strengths and skillfully hides his flaws. Plays late, soft hands, and when he does play strokes, he uses that ridiculous open stance to get himself into great position very quickly. He's also a superb timer of a cricket ball (which is why I don't think it's fair to call him ugly). His wrists are strong and flexible, and with those soft hands, he can play a straight drive to a length ball along the ground for four.
Now to the selfishness debate:
I don't want to start a direct flame war but it seems some of the folks here are oblivious to Chanders' transparent selfishness. Sorry guys, I love watching the guy bat and hope he keeps going, but you haven't followed his career that closely if you think the selfishness accusations are totally unfounded (you might find Chanders' decisions defensible, but at least understand where guys like kyear2 are coming from).
Three obvious signs of selfishness throughout his career
1.) Batting for not outs. Chanderpaul is notorious for not farming the strike (taking singles off the first ball) or going for quick runs. No one would say he has to bat quickly, but if he isn't going to, occupying the strike is of importance. Just look at the most recent India series for a great example of this. And he doesn't do this with capable tailenders as much as he does with incompetent ones. The only reason to be taking singles off the first ball is to secure the not out. That's selfish
2.) Unwillingness to change his batting spot. Chanders loves to bat at 5 and only 5. Despite his team lacking depth in the batting for at least the last 8-10 years. And his reasoning is weak as piss (that the younger batsman should be using it as an opportunity to prove themselves). Getting runs up the order is harder and more important than getting them down the order, when even a player like Sammy can make useful runs. Shiv has been the most capable batsman in that side, he should have taken up the responsibility.
3.) Not taking up the captaincy. This is a harsh criticism that idk if I totally agree with, but considering the dire straits Windies have been in up until recently, Chanders' refusal is somewhat pathetic. His team needed him to take the captaincy if only to ensure that there was minimal deadweight in the XI. Instead, Windies have Sammy, who denies Windies from forming a capable attack from the quality bowlers they have. Chanders could put WI out of its captaincy misery in one fell swoop
Now to the selfishness debate:
I don't want to start a direct flame war but it seems some of the folks here are oblivious to Chanders' transparent selfishness. Sorry guys, I love watching the guy bat and hope he keeps going, but you haven't followed his career that closely if you think the selfishness accusations are totally unfounded (you might find Chanders' decisions defensible, but at least understand where guys like kyear2 are coming from).
Three obvious signs of selfishness throughout his career
1.) Batting for not outs. Chanderpaul is notorious for not farming the strike (taking singles off the first ball) or going for quick runs. No one would say he has to bat quickly, but if he isn't going to, occupying the strike is of importance. Just look at the most recent India series for a great example of this. And he doesn't do this with capable tailenders as much as he does with incompetent ones. The only reason to be taking singles off the first ball is to secure the not out. That's selfish
2.) Unwillingness to change his batting spot. Chanders loves to bat at 5 and only 5. Despite his team lacking depth in the batting for at least the last 8-10 years. And his reasoning is weak as piss (that the younger batsman should be using it as an opportunity to prove themselves). Getting runs up the order is harder and more important than getting them down the order, when even a player like Sammy can make useful runs. Shiv has been the most capable batsman in that side, he should have taken up the responsibility.
3.) Not taking up the captaincy. This is a harsh criticism that idk if I totally agree with, but considering the dire straits Windies have been in up until recently, Chanders' refusal is somewhat pathetic. His team needed him to take the captaincy if only to ensure that there was minimal deadweight in the XI. Instead, Windies have Sammy, who denies Windies from forming a capable attack from the quality bowlers they have. Chanders could put WI out of its captaincy misery in one fell swoop
JontyPanesar
U19 Vice-Captain
Yeah, that's probably the weakest criticism, but when you consider how much Sammy really has hamstrung the side, Chanders putting his hand up would have gone a long way
OverratedSanity
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Yeah, what do you guys have to say about today's innings. Just confirmed, for me, once again, that he might just be a selfish player. Shocking I know, but someone who plays 8 out of 41 deliveries after the last specialist batsman falls, like today, which leads to a collapse of 6 for 33, just highlight that maybe, you guys are wrong. I don't care that West Indies even somehow manage to win this through a Taylor special. Today was the kind of Chanders knock he's played multiple times his career, which helps his stats, yeah... but does it help his team? meh, not so much.
Amazed that those last two posts got as many likes as they did as well. It's as if no one's watched his career.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Ya I haven't watched many of Chanders' innings with the tail, but today he really looked selfish. It wasn't a hopeless situation too. If you're trailing by more than 100 in the 3rd innings with 2 wickets to go then I can understand this behavior because if a tailender doesn't play a blinder you have no chance of saving. But when you are ahead by 120 with 2 wickets to go, every run counts. You should potect your tail in such a situation IMO.