Why wasnt Ed Smith not called up?

[marc71178]

I knew that, I was actually interested inn the names that you thought were next in line, because I am genuinely struggling to find a viable option.

 

[Richard]

The problem is our middle order is pretty set

How on Earth is that a problem?
IMO it's a very, very good thing.

 

[Richard]

IMO if Troughton hadnt lost form from the Natwest Series & Challenge he might have been in a few Test squads.

Bell is good enough for ODIs.

But that's just the problem - he didn't lose form - it was never there ITFP. He's never been much of a one-day player.
His First-Class form didn't suffer due to the poor NatWest ODIs, because there's no reason it should have.
The non-selection of Bell for ODIs is a little strange, it has to be said.

 

[Richard]

Wasn't Strauss due to join the ODI squad anyway? Therefore it can't be a waste of a plane ticket. In fact, they may have even gotten a better deal this time around. :P

The point is, he was called-up for The First Test only.
He was due to join the ODI squad in... well, five weeks time. You can't keep someone in West Indies for 5 weeks as a 17th man, when there's so little cricket being played.

 

[Richard]

Got any reasons for that?

I prefer not to move openers down the order, but it's not immediately obvious to me why someone who normally opens shouldn't be able to do well in the middle order as long as he isn't one of these nervous nellies who simply cannot stand waiting around to bat. Strauss isn't that sort: he's a pretty level-headed sort of chap and wouldn't be fazed at going in out of position. And he's not opening because it keeps him away from spinners, either, because he's a pretty competent all-round bat.

I haven't seen Jones bat, so I've nothing to go on for a comparison, but I've been reasonably impressed with Strauss - not so much that I'm jumping up and down saying "Pick him!" but enough that I don't think I'd mind him being picked.

So what's Jones got that Strauss hasn't? (Don't say "Welsh ancestry.")

I don't know why openers never make good middle-order players, but IMO there are enough cases of people trying to make them middle-order players to say they don't. It's not like the obvious reasons why middle-order players don't make good openers, but it's equally evident.
I personally think Strauss is one of the better players in English cricket, but I don't want him in the side unless he's opening.

Remind me how badly he did in Sri Lanka and in the rather farcical game between indeterminate numbers of Englaish tourists and Jamaicans, which for some reason I think happened after the end of the English season and might have a certain relevance to this discussion.

Even so, I can't understand why you're debating Jones when the majestically super-duper Rikki Clarke is hovering in the wings after his formidably impressive tour of Bangladesh.

I'll remind you how badly Collingwood did in Sri Lanka: he averaged 22.25 in the Tests. While he played his part in some important match-changing spells, he didn't demonstrate any ability to do what, in Test-cricket, is the neccessary thing to do - score runs at a high average. In the meaningless game, meanwhile, he didn't actually do badly at all, he scored a good innings.
Personally I'd much prefer Jones to Clarke. Even though Jones has only had one good season, Clarke's had two.

 

[badgerhair]

Personally I'd much prefer Jones to Clarke. Even though Jones has only had one good season, Clarke's had two.

That is not at all clear as sentences go - at first blush it appears to imply that having a good season is a Bad Thing. Do you mean that despite Clarke having so far demonstrated better credentials in terms of sustained actual performance in first-class cricket, you still prefer the other guy?

Cheers,

Mike

 

[badgerhair]

I don't know why openers never make good middle-order players, but IMO there are enough cases of people trying to make them middle-order players to say they don't. It's not like the obvious reasons why middle-order players don't make good openers, but it's equally evident.
I personally think Strauss is one of the better players in English cricket, but I don't want him in the side unless he's opening.

Mark Butcher has certainly been a great disappointment since he was recalled to the side in 2001 and asked to go into the middle order instead of his normal opening position.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[marc71178]

How on Earth is that a problem?
IMO it's a very, very good thing.

Take it in context.

It was replying to Rik's bemoaning of the fact that they weren't getting the chance, and was explaining it from my POV.

 

[marc71178]

I'll remind you how badly Collingwood did in Sri Lanka: he averaged 22.25 in the Tests.

Yes, and I'll remind you how the conditions were not conducive to big scoring and he did exactly what was required of him.

I'll also remind you that when he played, we didn't lose, and that was due in no small part to his efforts.

 

[Craig]

But England didnt win either. They never made an attempt to win, just playing for draws.

England deserved to lose the series.

I would rather lose trying to win then lose and trying to draw.

 

[Rik]

I knew that, I was actually interested inn the names that you thought were next in line, because I am genuinely struggling to find a viable option.

Obviously I'd have to include Pietersen because he's a fantastic prospect. Troughton should be up there, I'm not going to say Bell but maybe after a good season he might be worth a go in the ODI side then promotion to the Test side if he does well. Certainly I'd go for Owais Shah, another of those, like Troughton, picked in the wrong form of the game, and certainly he's had a good run since moving up to number 3 for Middlesex. Of course we've also got Mark Wagh of Warwickshire who impressed at the academy and has scored a fair few runs in the last few years. Since Collingwood hasn't cemented a place in the England side he's an option. One interisting idea could be David Sales. He's only 26 remember and he's a brilliant talent, and no where near too old to go to the Academy. Certainly with his perchant for big scores he would be very handy, he scores at a fair lick and I haven't noticed county form (or the lack of it) being a problem for the England selectors lately. Ed Smith could do with going to the academy, but he's another option, he did score a 50 remember. Of course if Peng or Muchall kick on for Durham we could see them coming into the frame, they are a while away but are very talented players. Alistair Cook of Essex could be someone to look out for after his performances in the final stages of the U-19 WC.

The pool is nowhere near dry, and I'm pretty sure I've forgotten a few others!

 

[Rik]

Take it in context.

It was replying to Rik's bemoaning of the fact that they weren't getting the chance, and was explaining it from my POV.

To be fair he was. But I wouldn't use the term "bemoaning." I am just disapointed plainly obviously talented players are being left out or picked in the wrong form of the game, in favor of real county pros like Anthony McGrath.

 

[badgerhair]

Obviously I'd have to include Pietersen because he's a fantastic prospect. Troughton should be up there, I'm not going to say Bell but maybe after a good season he might be worth a go in the ODI side then promotion to the Test side if he does well. Certainly I'd go for Owais Shah, another of those, like Troughton, picked in the wrong form of the game, and certainly he's had a good run since moving up to number 3 for Middlesex. Of course we've also got Mark Wagh of Warwickshire who impressed at the academy and has scored a fair few runs in the last few years. Since Collingwood hasn't cemented a place in the England side he's an option. One interisting idea could be David Sales. He's only 26 remember and he's a brilliant talent, and no where near too old to go to the Academy. Certainly with his perchant for big scores he would be very handy, he scores at a fair lick and I haven't noticed county form (or the lack of it) being a problem for the England selectors lately. Ed Smith could do with going to the academy, but he's another option, he did score a 50 remember. Of course if Peng or Muchall kick on for Durham we could see them coming into the frame, they are a while away but are very talented players. Alistair Cook of Essex could be someone to look out for after his performances in the final stages of the U-19 WC.

The pool is nowhere near dry, and I'm pretty sure I've forgotten a few others!

I'd disagree with a couple of those names. I'm a member of both Middx and Yorks, by the way, in case you want to factor in some county bias. I think Owais Shah is a dud, a rather lesser version of Solanki. The Middx player who is really good is Joyce, but he doesn't qualify until some time in 2005. At the other end of the M1, Michael Lumb's coming along quite nicely, but he's nowhere near ready for international recognition yet.

I think Sales might be a reasonable option against Bangladesh, but his record shows that he's none too secure against an attack as powerful as that of the mighty Zimbabwe. Of the three hundreds he has made in the two seasons since his dreadful injury, all were made on what appear to have been pretty flat tracks, and the bowling he faced had the rapidly ageing Dominic Cork in one match towards the end of last season, and Nixon Maclean in another, and the rest were nobodies. Apart from those three innings, he got past fifty once in every six innnings. No thanks.

Even so, I think there's enough competition for the places which will be vacated by Hussain and then Thorpe for there to be little need for tearing hair as yet.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Rik]

I'd disagree with a couple of those names. I'm a member of both Middx and Yorks, by the way, in case you want to factor in some county bias. I think Owais Shah is a dud, a rather lesser version of Solanki. The Middx player who is really good is Joyce, but he doesn't qualify until some time in 2005. At the other end of the M1, Michael Lumb's coming along quite nicely, but he's nowhere near ready for international recognition yet.

I think Sales might be a reasonable option against Bangladesh, but his record shows that he's none too secure against an attack as powerful as that of the mighty Zimbabwe. Of the three hundreds he has made in the two seasons since his dreadful injury, all were made on what appear to have been pretty flat tracks, and the bowling he faced had the rapidly ageing Dominic Cork in one match towards the end of last season, and Nixon Maclean in another, and the rest were nobodies. Apart from those three innings, he got past fifty once in every six innnings. No thanks.

Even so, I think there's enough competition for the places which will be vacated by Hussain and then Thorpe for there to be little need for tearing hair as yet.

Cheers,

Mike

Yeah I knew I had forgot a few! Joyce is a very promising player. I don't think much of Lumb though, really hasn't done anything on the A-Tour. Not sure how Bilal Shafayat (have I spelt it right?) will fit into this, certainly talented but maybe just too much talk and no product, like Afzaal. I don't think Owais is a dud, consistant scoring and a very good technique points to a better player than that label. Yes he's not allways orthodox, but his natural ability to glide the ball into odd places with no risk, is a very useful part of his game. He did it against Australia on his debut and Pakistan the game after, I'm sure if he was given the chance (which I doubt he will, because he's been put down as a failure purely on performances in his weaker form of the game) he would score good runs.

As for Sales, well Vaughan was averaging 27 for Yorkshire when he was called up by England for the tour of South Africa, and it still took him a long time to turn into a Test batsman, certainly I feel he was picked too early. Sales has the talent, that's why the academy would be useful to see if they can bring it all together.

 

[marc71178]

The pool is nowhere near dry, and I'm pretty sure I've forgotten a few others!

Interesting that you named 3 Warwickshire players and as A Warwickshire fan they hadn't occurred to me based on recent form.

 

[Richard]

Mark Butcher has certainly been a great disappointment since he was recalled to the side in 2001 and asked to go into the middle order instead of his normal opening position.

Cheers,

Mike

Three, one, very similar, especially when you consider how infrequent decent opening stands are.
Anyway, I never said every opener ever tried in the middle has failed. Butcher's so good he can bat at one and three with equal capability.

 

[tooextracool]

Three, one, very similar, especially when you consider how infrequent decent opening stands are.
Anyway, I never said every opener ever tried in the middle has failed. Butcher's so good he can bat at one and three with equal capability.

now that butcher is batting at 3 he needs to score big not just get 50s and 60s that were accustomed to seeing from him

 

[Richard]

Err... we've always needed that, from every player ever to play... and we've got it from Butcher as much as we could ask.

 

[tooextracool]

Err... we've always needed that, from every player ever to play... and we've got it from Butcher as much as we could ask.

err...no he doesnt, everytime he gets to 50-60 he loses his concentration and plays a stupid shot much like he did yesterday.
its a characteristic of many of these english players-butcher,tresco(when he gets past 30),hussain and flintoff

 

[Richard]

Trescothick and Flintoff still have much to do before proving themselves Test-class batsmen as far as I'm concerned.
Butcher and Hussain are perfectly fine AFAIC.