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Why was Andy Caddick a rubbish 1st innings bowler?

How do people rate Andy Caddick as a Test bowler?


  • Total voters
    27

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not everyone can play mind-games with themselves. Only a few have ever managed to, in fact.
He didn't have a mental disorder Richard, he was just temperamental. At 30 you really should be able to gather your thoughts a little better than at 18. The fact he continued on in the same vein for a whole career is a weakness (which is stating the obvious really). I wouldn't be surprised if Andy got the huffs in the English team when things didn't go his way yet the reason he managed to perform much more consistently at county level was because he went back to being a big fish in a bit of a smaller pond.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Of course not, because then it'd become evident that there's not many bowlers at all who are so good in the second innings yet so poor in the first.
I'm well aware of that - but no two bowlers' careers are the same. Rather than simply assuming Caddick had a first-innings aversion, why not actually try and find a reason for such a thing? If you can't - and no-one, ever, has, apart from the uneven bounce question which as I said only covers a small degree of it - then you cannot realistically assert that it's anything other than coincidence.
So when the pressure was off Caddick appeared and got them back into the game sometimes. That must have been reassuring.
The pressure is certainly not off if you're behind in the game. About as far from it as possible, in fact.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
He didn't have a mental disorder Richard, he was just temperamental.
No, I know he didn't.

Mind, one could say that in cricket terms being temperamental is something of a mental disorder.

Where did I say he had a mental disorder though?
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No, I know he didn't.

Mind, one could say that in cricket terms being temperamental is something of a mental disorder.

Where did I say he had a mental disorder though?
:laugh:

You didn't mate, I was simply pointing out that a poor attitude can be overcome. It's not something he had to live with for his whole career.

I don't want to turn this into a 4 page thing on A.Caddick and our respective opinions of him though, I think we know what we both think about him.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I know it could. I'd say it was, in fact, TBH, having read Hussain and Fletcher's words about him. They were masterful at orchestrating mind-games with him. Sadly from June 2001 onwards he failed to bowl as he could, which I think was more to do with physical than mental problems.

I'm not disputing for a second that had Caddick had a better mindset, or had someone from 1993 to 1998 who was better at the mental side of coaching in the setup with him, he might well have done better at that time. But I don't feel he had the power to decide to not be the way he was. It was out of his control. He depended on someone who understood him being around.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I know it could. I'd say it was, in fact, TBH, having read Hussain and Fletcher's words about him. They were masterful at orchestrating mind-games with him. Sadly from June 2001 onwards he failed to bowl as he could, which I think was more to do with physical than mental problems.

I'm not disputing for a second that had Caddick had a better mindset, or had someone from 1993 to 1998 who was better at the mental side of coaching in the setup with him, he might well have done better at that time. But I don't feel he had the power to decide to not be the way he was. It was out of his control. He depended on someone who understood him being around.
I think if England had a wider choice of decent bowlers around and they could have afforded to put Caddick out to pasture until he sorted himself out there's a chance he could have been very good if he got himself together (or, on the other hand, he may have disappeared). The fact they couldn't afford to get rid of a bowler who was decent as it would be to the detriment of the team meant his attitude became someone else's problem.

I think he did have the power to not be the way he was, the fact that it served some purpose for him (i.e: possibly attention and a certain amount of pandering) meant that he didn't do it of his own accord and the position the English team was in meant he was molly-coddled rather than sat on his arse.
 

Top_Cat

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The pressure is certainly not off if you're behind in the game. About as far from it as possible, in fact.
In terms of being a leader and dictating terms, the pressure is less if you're behind in the game. A bloke who only fires up in the second innings when his team is in strife has the advantage of bowling his guts out for a short period of time and if it works, great but if not, he can say "Well I bowled my guts out, we lost, not my fault." i.e. the pressure is really only on them to bowl well in the second innings and for a short burst at that. It's much easier to throw everything you've got at the opposition when you think you've got nothing to lose.

That's the difference, cognitively-speaking, between striving to be at your best all the time compared to when your behind in the match; the pressure of the imminent loss is there but you can erase the responsibility in your mind for your team's position in the match with one or two spells where you finally put in, thereby releasing the dissonance. Someone who strives to do well all the time feels the pressure to do so all the time and if their team loses, regardless of whether they bowled well in patches, they'll feel it afterwards and then when they front-up for the next Test. They only release that tension when their team wins.

The problems that people have with these sorts of blokes is multi-faceted;

a) It's low-percentage as a tactic. Waiting for motivation to materialise in the form of your opposition dominating you is dangerous and won't work most of the time as evidenced by England's relatively poor win-loss record and Caddick's not-as-good-as-it-should-have-been record.

b) For the same reason as above, letting your opponent dictate the course of the game will lose you more games than win.

c) It smacks of only getting into the game when you bloody well feel like it and is not usually the tactic of genuine team players. Guys like McGrath and Warne didn't need the threat of defeat to get them motivated to turn up. They just did their job and let their opponents chase them and not the other way around. Anyone playing at the highest level should not need any other motivation to do well or they shouldn't be playing Test cricket. Nothing saps the confidence of a team more than people who turn up to play on their terms only.

Someone who takes control of the game right from the start has the additional pressure of not only bowling well when the game is still fairly even and opponents are jostling for position but also in the second innings unless their team absolutely demolishes the opposition. That's why, overall, the pressure is greatest on those who choose to come into the game in all conditions/points in a game.

As for Caddick specifically, I always thought he was a decent Test bowler who didn't play against Australia when at his peak. As Goughy said, when fired-up, he was pretty lethal and he was certainly hyped to the eyeballs before playing his first Test in 1993. I do reckon he used to phone-in his first innings performances sometimes but not as often as perception would indicate. Seemed to be harshly treated by selectors, though.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Because quite simply the difference between the innings for Caddick is far greater than that of others.

Here are the first 2 I looked at a) Ambrose- Tall bowler benefiting from same conditions Caddick would and b) Gough- Who bowled in tandem with Caddick for many years.

Ambrose


Gough
Hmmm Very interesting. Wonder why ?
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Even when Caddick did turn up, it was often in response to others leading the way - Edgbaston 1 in 1997, Headlingly 2 in 2000 and Christchurch 1 in 2002 spring immediately to mind as spectacular AC entrances after other English bowlers had already blown the door off the hinges. Even Lord's 2 in 2000 needed Gough's gymnatics at 3rd man to spark Caddick into life. I suspect that's part of the same issue as regards his inability to initiate game changes, and that may be another aspect of his poor contributions to opponents 1st innings..
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
And the 2 occasions against NZ in 1999?

(1 of which lead to the Tudor-inspired victory, the other which was followed and completely reversed by Cairns' blast)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I think if England had a wider choice of decent bowlers around and they could have afforded to put Caddick out to pasture until he sorted himself out there's a chance he could have been very good if he got himself together (or, on the other hand, he may have disappeared). The fact they couldn't afford to get rid of a bowler who was decent as it would be to the detriment of the team meant his attitude became someone else's problem.
Weird thing is, for a long time they did. As I said, he went 3 years between the summer of 1994 and the first part of the winter of 1996/97 where he played a single Test. I often wonder what might have happened in that time had he played more.
I think he did have the power to not be the way he was, the fact that it served some purpose for him (i.e: possibly attention and a certain amount of pandering) meant that he didn't do it of his own accord and the position the English team was in meant he was molly-coddled rather than sat on his arse.
You really think he placed more value on that than doing the best he could for himself and his team - something which would both be hugely enjoyable at the time and add to his legacy?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
In terms of being a leader and dictating terms, the pressure is less if you're behind in the game. A bloke who only fires up in the second innings when his team is in strife has the advantage of bowling his guts out for a short period of time and if it works, great but if not, he can say "Well I bowled my guts out, we lost, not my fault." i.e. the pressure is really only on them to bowl well in the second innings and for a short burst at that. It's much easier to throw everything you've got at the opposition when you think you've got nothing to lose.

That's the difference, cognitively-speaking, between striving to be at your best all the time compared to when your behind in the match; the pressure of the imminent loss is there but you can erase the responsibility in your mind for your team's position in the match with one or two spells where you finally put in, thereby releasing the dissonance. Someone who strives to do well all the time feels the pressure to do so all the time and if their team loses, regardless of whether they bowled well in patches, they'll feel it afterwards and then when they front-up for the next Test. They only release that tension when their team wins.

The problems that people have with these sorts of blokes is multi-faceted;

a) It's low-percentage as a tactic. Waiting for motivation to materialise in the form of your opposition dominating you is dangerous and won't work most of the time as evidenced by England's relatively poor win-loss record and Caddick's not-as-good-as-it-should-have-been record.

b) For the same reason as above, letting your opponent dictate the course of the game will lose you more games than win.

c) It smacks of only getting into the game when you bloody well feel like it and is not usually the tactic of genuine team players. Guys like McGrath and Warne didn't need the threat of defeat to get them motivated to turn up. They just did their job and let their opponents chase them and not the other way around. Anyone playing at the highest level should not need any other motivation to do well or they shouldn't be playing Test cricket. Nothing saps the confidence of a team more than people who turn up to play on their terms only.

Someone who takes control of the game right from the start has the additional pressure of not only bowling well when the game is still fairly even and opponents are jostling for position but also in the second innings unless their team absolutely demolishes the opposition. That's why, overall, the pressure is greatest on those who choose to come into the game in all conditions/points in a game.
I don't feel for a second that this applies to Caddick, however. I don't think he, either consciously or subconsciously, had a preference for bowling when the team were on the back-foot. There are enough examples of him playing his part in seizing the initiative to demonstrate that, for mine.
As for Caddick specifically, I always thought he was a decent Test bowler who didn't play against Australia when at his peak. As Goughy said, when fired-up, he was pretty lethal and he was certainly hyped to the eyeballs before playing his first Test in 1993. I do reckon he used to phone-in his first innings performances sometimes but not as often as perception would indicate. Seemed to be harshly treated by selectors, though.
In that he played 1 Test between 1994 and 1996, yes. In that he performed perfectly respectably in 1997 and 1998 against Australia and West Indies then was left-out for the entire summer (where he took 105 wickets for Somerset) AND the 1998/99 tour of Australia, again yes (though he was dropped for Dominic Cork, which also had plenty going for it as a decision).

Raymond Illingworth was a notoriously poor man-manager, however, and Caddick is one of a few players to suffer for this.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
And the 2 occasions against NZ in 1999?

(1 of which lead to the Tudor-inspired victory, the other which was followed and completely reversed by Cairns' blast)
Yes, there were exceptions, hence use of 'often'.

My other gripe is his tendency not to show up in vital games even when conditions were in his favour - Old Trafford in 1997, the 1st Trinidad test in 1998, Headingly in 2002. probably mental frailty/lack of confidence/whatever. No-one's saying it was deliberate.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The first two I'll give you, but Headingley 2002 he should never have been picked as never once in that game did he look like he'd fully recovered and bowled himself back into shape following that ripped intercostal muscle.

And don't forget with Old Trafford 1997 he trapped Stephen Waugh bang in front with a Full-Toss 1st ball in his innings in the first-innings. But yes, sadly, George Sharp refused to give it out.

You can't expect to get a batsman as good as Waugh out twice.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
The first two I'll give you, but Headingley 2002 he should never have been picked as never once in that game did he look like he'd fully recovered and bowled himself back into shape following that ripped intercostal muscle.

And don't forget with Old Trafford 1997 he trapped Stephen Waugh bang in front with a Full-Toss 1st ball in his innings in the first-innings. But yes, sadly, George Sharp refused to give it out.

You can't expect to get a batsman as good as Waugh out twice.
I thought he'd played a county game or 2 before the Leeds 2002 test, but maybe not. There' s better things to do this afternoon than checkthat out. :)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
He had, UIMM. However, unless something quite extraordinary had happened, you'd have been able to tell by watching those 2 games (which some selector or other should have done) that he wasn't yet back to the level he was normally at.

So either the selectors a) didn't watch him in those games; b) watched him, mistook the signs and thought he was back to better than he was or c) knew he wasn't back to his best but picked him for Headingley anyway.

Either way, he should never have played. The following game, on an impossibly flat wicket at The Oval, he was head-and-shoulders above the rest of the attack.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
I'm pleasantly surprised to see how the poll results here are shaping up. Looks like he's a good Test bowler then.
 

Top_Cat

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I don't feel for a second that this applies to Caddick, however. I don't think he, either consciously or subconsciously, had a preference for bowling when the team were on the back-foot. There are enough examples of him playing his part in seizing the initiative to demonstrate that, for mine.
His first bowling innings' averages would suggest otherwise.

I just want to add, though, that bowlers like him have their place especially if they're really talented. And, let's face it, there's far more bowlers who put in when they're really motivated because it's really hard to maintain the rage all the time (which is why there's so few bowlers who can). They just need to be managed right and I don't think Caddick was. Dropping him after Edgbaston in 1997 was baffling, even taking into account how well Dean Headley bowled in teh subsequent Tests.

In that he played 1 Test between 1994 and 1996, yes. In that he performed perfectly respectably in 1997 and 1998 against Australia and West Indies then was left-out for the entire summer (where he took 105 wickets for Somerset) AND the 1998/99 tour of Australia, again yes (though he was dropped for Dominic Cork, which also had plenty going for it as a decision).

Raymond Illingworth was a notoriously poor man-manager, however, and Caddick is one of a few players to suffer for this.
The rot started in 1993, though. The whole series he was being pigeonholed as a guy too quick to move the ball a lot but too slow to being an all-out express bowler. No-one, it seemed, knew what to think of him. He didnt bowl that badly and certainly he looked as if he had plenty of potential. The Aussie batting was just on song, really.
 

James90

Cricketer Of The Year
As a spectator who sat behind me said about Ajit Agarkar, "he'd be about 10kph quicker if he trimmed those ears back"
 

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