Why is Lillee rated above Imran?

[subshakerz]

In your haste to simply get a reply to everything said, you touted Imran's injury as a likeness. Yet we both know the injuries were different. Who gives a **** if it only inhibited him for 1 or 2 years if after he could bowl even faster; when the other guy in question had a physical handicap for the rest of his whole life..

You clearly didnt read my post.

 

[Sanz]

I am talking about 1 series against WIndies in WI. Not the whole WSC record. I'll check it again since I did it manually.

Lillee played 5 Tests in WI in WSC, these are it:


You're right, the record is 28.39 @ 47.1. I must have not added a game or something. Thanks for the correction.

He didn't play a 6th game in WSC as far as I know. Unless, you're talking about the 1 he did play in Tests. Which would be pretty ridiculous as that is the match he broke down with stress fractures in his back.

Ofcourse it would be ridiculous to include that test since it involves 32 overs that Lillee bowled in that test match without taking a single wicket.

Of Course It will be ridiculous to include that test because including that test would mean that Lillee's average in WI would be around 34 and SR would be around 55 considerably lower than Imran's bolwing avg. and SR in WI.

 

[Sanz]

Even if Imran didn't bowl to the strong WI lineups in WSC (I haven't checked that), didn't he bowl to mighty WI in official tests all through the 80's with impressive results? Lillee can at best emerge as Imran's equal in performance against WI but not better by any stretch of imagination.

Imran did bowl to the WI side in one super test during WSC and had an avg. of 21,67 and SR of 44. Of course that is too small a sample but again it does not at least prove the theory that Lillee was somehow the better bowler than Imran against the WI side comin WSC.

 

[Ikki]

the stats show that he has bowled and done well against excellent lineups (thought that the stats leading to the matches themselves makes it abundantly clear...hence the links), comparable to those lillee bowled against. for starters it isn't that imran didn't bowl to kallicharan and co. even though, richardson in his pomp in the late 80s was a better batsman. second, the opening pair of haynes and greenidge (at their prime) was better than fredericks and greenidge. gomes was no slouch either and was often the glue that kept the team together. so, not cut and dried at all. perhaps the performances and ratings of the batsmen played against in each series weighted appropriately will be the easiest way to decide one way of the other. feel free to knock yourself out in that regards....after all, since u are the one who initially claimed that lillee bowled against better windian lineups, the onus is completely on u to prove that he did, not on me.

But they're not.

Lillee faced both Greenidge and Haynes, and Greenidge and Fredericks FTR. More to the point, Greenidge and Fredericks were better on paper, they just didn't have the recognition as a pair because it didn't last long enough. Fredericks when opening with Greenidge averaged 49. Greenidge when opening with Fredericks averaged 47. You mention the other pair's peak; fair point. When was it in your opinion? 86-88? Looking at their record with each other it looks like their good years seldom overlapped.

I have already shown you, unfortunately, you haven't appreciated or looked at the points properly. By the time Lillee retired and both had played comparable WI line-ups, Lillee's record was better than Imran's. The lineups they faced upto that time were also quite a bit better than the line-ups Imran faced later - generally a couple more notable batsmen and them not being as old.

This is not to say that Imran played crap WI line-ups or he bashed when the going was good. He did well against some awesome line-ups. You're rarely going to get the chance to bowl to such a high quality line-up, when they're all at their peak, and succeed. That's just asking for too much. So Imran indeed has a fine record. However, Lillee just happens to have an even better one when you look at the best batting attacks faced. As I showed earlier, Lillee played 31 of his 89 'Tests' with line-ups you might not find ever in one certain era for one team, never mind across several teams. And he was awesome against all. In all my looking at player's records I simply have not found a player who has done that. That is why, I am guessing, Lillee's legend is so strong amongst contemporaries and cricket historians.

 

[Ikki]

Even if Imran didn't bowl to the strong WI lineups in WSC (I haven't checked that), didn't he bowl to mighty WI in official tests all through the 80's with impressive results? Lillee can at best emerge as Imran's equal in performance against WI but not better by any stretch of imagination.

You're missing the point. I am saying you can't say Imran was better than Lillee in WSC, firstly, because he played very few matches and, secondly, 4/5 matches he played were against Australia. Who, whilst good, can't compare to the line-ups Lillee had to face in WSC against WI and World XI. So the contention that Imran was better is simply poor.

Ofcourse it would be ridiculous to include that test since it involves 32 overs that Lillee bowled in that test match without taking a single wicket.

Of Course It will be ridiculous to include that test because including that test would mean that Lillee's average in WI would be around 34 and SR would be around 55 considerably lower than Imran's bolwing avg. and SR in WI.

Or because...he broke his back while bowling and was too strong-headed to stop. That's why the doctor's said he turned 1 stress fracture into 3. But you go ahead. One day you'll argue this point, another day against it. Depending on which side of the bed you wake up on that day.

 

[Ikki]

i see....the sample set problem. 5 isn't too small a sample set. what is a fair set? 7? 8? such that it is taken seriously? on another tack, dare one suggest that it might be easier for a team to play and excel against a collection of individuals? we saw what happened when the world 11 (the highest rated collection of players ever, apparently) played against australia in 04 or was it 05? don't want to shift goalposts but u did mention context is important.

I guess it depends what you're referring to. It wouldn't be very feasible to desire them to play 7-8 tests in every condition possible because few players had 100+ test careers in their era. I changed my post from "exactly" to "party" because the former insinuates that is only the problem. One can say Imran did fine in WSC - I think 5 matches establish that. To say he did better than Lillee is a bigger stretch and not really credible on the facts. Lillee played more, had wonderful stats, and played better teams, every game. Not just 1.

Re your point about a collection of individuals: no, I really don't consider that much of a point although I know some would agree with you. Whilst cricket is a team game it is very individual-based. It is one bowler vs one batsman at a time. Certain things about fielding could make a difference but I don't think skill-wise you have to rely so much on your teammates to succeed. In 05 the World XI were simply inferior; the Aus XI was the World XI, in a way.

also, if one were to argue about context, it can be argued that imran had to deal with the pressure of bowling for a side facing better bowling lineups....averaged over all the series. haven't looked into this too thoroughly....perhaps someone can cast some light on this?

I am not sure what you mean. Also, Imran's side was generally 2nd to WI.

 

[Sanz]

Or because...he broke his back while bowling and was too strong-headed to stop. That's why the doctor's said he turned 1 stress fracture into 3. But you go ahead. One day you'll argue this point, another day against it. Depending on which side of the bed you wake up on that day.

It is funny to see you referencing Dr.'s opinion to make up stats. And no I do not need to check Dr.'s opinion or some statistical data to know Lillee's greatness as a bowler. I know how good he was regardless of the stats he has, but it is you lives and dies by stats and now that it does not work in the favor of your player you have simple started making up new stats.

 

[Ikki]

It is funny to see you referencing Dr.'s opinion to make up stats. And no I do not need to check Dr.'s opinion or some statistical data to know Lillee's greatness as a bowler. I know how good he was regardless of the stats he has, but it is you lives and dies by stats and now that it does not work in the favor of your player you have simple started making up new stats.

The point is that having stress fractures didn't make him incapable of bowling in the match; just pretty incapable of bowling well. As his Dr said he aggravated his injury by playing through pain. The thing is that his injury wasn't an obvious one. Lillee recalls he was the first player in cricket diagnosed with it. So at the time he probably thought it was something less serious and being the competitor he is tried to bowl through it. He then spent his winter in entire torso cast. But of course, anything for you to argue with, right?

The irony of the above, the stats I present are contextual and place importance on the what, how, why, etc. If context didnt matter I wouldn't be in this discussion.

 

[bagapath]

i think imran averaged under 25 against most of his opponents and his worst was 28+ against one team IIRC; unlike lillee who averaged 30+ against two or three teams. this should make imran a better candidate to have in an all time team to play all sorts of opponents in all sorts of conditions.

 

[Ikki]

Lillee didn't average in the 30s in any condition provided he played a team for more than 4 innings. This is why there is a debate.

 

[smash84]

it seems he couldn't take the hammering for more than 4 innings at any place

 

[Burgey]

He didn't cop too many hammerings, just quietly.

 

[JBMAC]

You can not rely on just "stats" to back your arguments. This has turned the thread into "Who can interpret the stats to best suit their needs". The simple fact of the matter is Dennis Lillee is the better bowler. He had the one factor fst bowlers need as a prerequisite........ie He had "the mongrel" in him.Lillee was the man ANY Captain could throw the ball to and know something would happen. It's as simple as that. Thread closed!

 

[Daemon]

Imran could throw the ball to himself and know something would happen

 

[smash84]

Imran could throw the ball to himself and know something would happen

well put

 

[weldone]

Imran could throw the ball to himself and know something would happen

 

[Xuhaib]

I have seen Aussies are quite defensive of Lillie possibly more defensive for him rather then someone like Mcgrath Warne is another guy that gets defended a lot.I wonder what might be the reason.

 

[Furball]

I have seen Aussies are quite defensive of Lillie possibly more defensive for him rather then someone like Mcgrath Warne is another guy that gets defended a lot.I wonder what might be the reason.

Because Lillee and Warne are absolute icons of the game in Australia.

 

[Fusion]

You can not rely on just "stats" to back your arguments. This has turned the thread into "Who can interpret the stats to best suit their needs". The simple fact of the matter is Dennis Lillee is the better bowler. He had the one factor fst bowlers need as a prerequisite........ie He had "the mongrel" in him.Lillee was the man ANY Captain could throw the ball to and know something would happen. It's as simple as that. Thread closed!

I can respect this opinion a lot more than the cherry picking of stats to make your candidate look better.

 

[Migara]

You can not rely on just "stats" to back your arguments. This has turned the thread into "Who can interpret the stats to best suit their needs". The simple fact of the matter is Dennis Lillee is the better bowler. He had the one factor fst bowlers need as a prerequisite........ie He had "the mongrel" in him.Lillee was the man ANY Captain could throw the ball to and know something would happen. It's as simple as that. Thread closed!

Imran was very able to do the same, and more importantly, to understand his fellow fast bowlers and use them for the same purpose. Imran basically was telling Wasim what to bowl, ball by ball. He was such a "proteus" when coming to getting in to any other players boots.