Why is it viewed as more important

[subshakerz]

Tbf, that's a bad example because dravid is a more valuable test fielder than Clarke because he was a top tier slip fielder.

Overall point is well made though.

All of the screamers I saw Dravid take were in the covers.

 

[honestbharani]

All of the screamers I saw Dravid take were in the covers.

He was an excellent short leg and silly point as well in the 90s. He is basically the best catcher I have seen from India since Azharuddin.

 

[ankitj]

Since Barry Richards came up in another poll, starting some reading about him. The below are just some interesting comments he's made about winning the county championship.

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It won't be hard to find anecdotes of lower order batting strengthening a team and helping it win games. You can find standalone examples for any type of skill. It's all about trade offs and opportunity costs. Passing on a better bowler for a slightly worse bowler but better batsman happens often but I have never seen a captain passing on a better batsman or bowler for fielding.

 

[OverratedSanity]

All of the screamers I saw Dravid take were in the covers.

In odis, sure I guess. All his more memorable catches are in tests for me. The one handed Salim Malik catch in the Chennai test is my favourite one (probably by any player).

 

[honestbharani]

I'm odis, sure I guess. All his more memorable catches are in tests for me. The one handed Salim Malik catch in the Chennai test is my favourite one (probably by any player).

There was also the one he took at square leg in an ODI in Australia that Lawry screamed was the catch of the season, right at the fag end of that never ending ODI tri-series.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He hasn't he has danced around it for over a week. He knows we have him dead to rights here.


Case in point. He deflects to slip fielding without actually addressing the main point, which is ATG bowling ARs being more preferable than a slightly better ATG pacer who is a tailender in an ATG low scoring scenario. The rest is just fluff and he pretending he can get away with this.

Slip fielding is even more important than lower order batting. But poor (not even average or below par) slip fielding apparently had no effect on Pakistani fast bowler averages. A true conundrum.

 

[honestbharani]

Slip fielding is even more important than lower order batting. But poor (not even average or below par) slip fielding apparently had no effect on Pakistani fast bowler averages. A true conundrum.

TBH some of those drops were probably well paid for. Maybe not that poor afterall.

 

[subshakerz]

TBH some of those drops were probably well paid for. Maybe not that poor afterall.

 

[peterhrt]

Twelve cricketers who were picked for England mainly because of their fielding. In other words they may well not have been chosen had they not been brilliant fielders.

EM Grace, Vernon Royle, AO Jones, David Denton, Percy Chapman, Arthur Mitchell, Jim McConnon, Alan Oakman, Peter Walker, Phil Sharpe, Graham Roope, Paul Parker.

 

[smash84]

Twelve cricketers who were picked for England mainly because of their fielding. In other words they may well not have been chosen had they not been brilliant fielders.

EM Grace, Vernon Royle, AO Jones, David Denton, Percy Chapman, Arthur Mitchell, Jim McConnon, Alan Oakman, Peter Walker, Phil Sharpe, Graham Roope, Paul Parker.

Some really big names in here

 

[peterhrt]

Some really big names in here

Exactly. If they were big names they wouldn't have to rely on their fielding.

 

[Coronis]

Did Grace really get in based on his fielding or just the family name

But yeah, only recognise 2-3 names there off the top of my head.

 

[peterhrt]

Did Grace really get in based on his fielding or just the family name

Possibly a combination of the two. He was the best fielder of his day, mainly at short point - a sort of square close gully.

In all cricket, mainly club matches, he took the second most wickets ever. WG was third. The pair spent virtually their entire summers on the cricket field until well into their sixties. They would arrange extra club matches in September to ensure they reached targets, such as a hundred, or two hundred, wickets in the season.

 

[peterhrt]

But yeah, only recognise 2-3 names there off the top of my head.

The most controversial is probably Jim McConnon. Not because of the two Tests he did play against Pakistan. But for getting picked to tour Australia in 1954-55 instead of Jim Laker.

At least that was the story. The reality is that it was Bob Appleyard whom Hutton preferred to Laker, and who played in the Test matches. Appleyard had been diagnosed with tuberculosis so McConnon was taken as backup, largely because he was an exceptional catcher in the gully.

 

[kyear2]

He hasn't he has danced around it for over a week. He knows we have him dead to rights here.


Case in point. He deflects to slip fielding without actually addressing the main point, which is ATG bowling ARs being more preferable than a slightly better ATG pacer who is a tailender in an ATG low scoring scenario. The rest is just fluff and he pretending he can get away with this.

I answered your question multiple times, just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't answered.

And I'm pretty sure it's in my answer that if I were to use one it would be Hadlee, because the benefit of him and Sobers is that they can make it on their primary skills alone.

 

[kyear2]

Would you include Hammond because of slip fielding?

If not, who gets the edge in your ATG side because of slip fielding?

Again that the beauty of having a Sobers or Hadlee, it doesn't require primary sacrifices. Said this twice.

Outside of that, my second opener.

It would be either Graeme, Barry or Sunny.

Barry is always my first choice, but to avoid the arguments, I went with Graeme last time because he also gives me that attacking left hander which the team needs, plus the captaincy.

Same way I go with Steyn for the reverse swing, I want an attacking second opener.

Shane is also there, but he's rated very slightly ahead of Murali as a bowler anyways.

 

[kyear2]

The problem with making fielding one of the backbones of a team selection, is that aside for very obvious exceptions (Mohammad Yousef, etc), for the most part great batsmen are for the most part at least good fielders anyway. For a random example Michael Clarke vs Rahul Dravid is a whole lot of nothingness on that front, and I think a lot of comparisons between great specialist bats you'll end up with maybe 2-3 runs on average saved by one or the other over a match, not the giant 16 runs or something a pinnacle fielder could save over an average one.

Sobers as a first pick for all attributes is a good one, but one wonders how much fielding is even necessary to justify that. Whereas on the other hand, if you're centering an all-time team around Mark Waugh and Johnty Rhodes, then it's fair to raise some eyebrows on that.

It's not the back bone, I've made that clear. And Waugh nor Rhodes would ever be a consideration.

 

[kyear2]

It won't be hard to find anecdotes of lower order batting strengthening a team and helping it win games. You can find standalone examples for any type of skill. It's all about trade offs and opportunity costs. Passing on a better bowler for a slightly worse bowler but better batsman happens often but I have never seen a captain passing on a better batsman or bowler for fielding.

Re the anecdotes, I don't doubt you, because I've never said it wasn't important. I would argue that while it helps win games, if it's that critical to your success it's not going to be a championship winning team.

Feel free to give examples for passing up the better bowler. That would only be a serious consideration if the team has questionable batting strength or depth. I can tell you Hooper kept his place so securely partly due to his ability to catch at 2nd.
For me and obviously others, that position is just as critical as the 5th bowler or no. 8 batsman.

Please note I said, just as critical.

 

[kyear2]

Slip fielding is even more important than lower order batting. But poor (not even average or below par) slip fielding apparently had no effect on Pakistani fast bowler averages. A true conundrum.

This is again a misrepresentation as I've always said it impacted Wasim. You and Smalisha can dig as long as you want.

I've said it impacted, the longest argument about that was when PkF or Subz wanted to quantify it and I clearly said I wouldn't know how much to do so.

I would also also argue that it cost more in terms of wins or losses than even personal average impacts.

 

[subshakerz]

I answered your question multiple times, just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't answered.

And I'm pretty sure it's in my answer that if I were to use one it would be Hadlee, because the benefit of him and Sobers is that they can make it on their primary skills alone.

No you didn't answer because you keep doing this, always dodge the low-scoring aspect of ATG games explicitly and say whether, yes or no, they make bowling ARs more valuable. Stop being so shifty

So you agree the case for an ATG AR like Hadlee is more pressing in ATG low scoring games?