Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[uvelocity]

whaddya do then, play tiddly winks

 

[9for52]

Gooch, Atherton, Stewart, Trescothick?

Crowe was an excellent batsman and captain but he has neither masses of runs (<6000) nor a stunning average (45) behind him.

Granted, I don't think England have had a bowler of Bond's quality since Botham.

Being a Black Caps follower I'd like to add my 2 cents worth on Crowe and Bond. Crowes Average of 45 puts him in ATG area mainly because the conditions in New Zealand are more often than not favouring seam bowlers. To highlight his claims to being an ATG he has played 247 games, 19000+ runs with an average of 56 with a large proportion of those runs coming in county cricket.

Bond on the other hand can not be considered an ATG. He just doesn't have the longevity or consistency in any form of the game. He is definitely one of the most devastating bowlers with a great strike rate but ATG I think not.

As for England.

Alec Stewart when you take into consideration his contribution as a keeper would have to be an ATG in my books. 8000+ test runs 250ish catches. Up there.

 

[hazsa19]

So English too lazy to even play?

brilliant

 

[Valer]

If Anderson and Broad maintain their current form for 3-5 years they'll have ATG-esque stats.

Anderson won't. Broad will be borderline at best. We've been over this before. Their terrible stats at the start of their careers will make anderson never make atg stat wise and make it hard for broad.


* bar a spree of truely atg years (read <19 avg).

 

[Jacknife]

Anderson won't. Broad will be borderline at best. We've been over this before. Their terrible stats at the start of their careers will make anderson never make atg stat wise and make it hard for broad.


* bar a spree of truely atg years (read <19 avg).

Broad started very young though didn't he, 20 and came in to international cricket without too much experience of first class cricket. He's just about to turn 26, so say if he can bowl to similar level like he has been doing for another 8 years, he should be right up there.
ATG I don't know but will probably go down as a great English player because he may end up being England's all time wicket taker.

If Jimmy manages to get his average down to around 26 by the end of his career he will have done extremely well but still that's some way from ATG stats. Again he will be right up there in terms of great English bowlers though.

 

[Red]

Being a Black Caps follower I'd like to add my 2 cents worth on Crowe and Bond. Crowes Average of 45 puts him in ATG area mainly because the conditions in New Zealand are more often than not favouring seam bowlers. To highlight his claims to being an ATG he has played 247 games, 19000+ runs with an average of 56 with a large proportion of those runs coming in county cricket.

As for England.

Alec Stewart when you take into consideration his contribution as a keeper would have to be an ATG in my books. 8000+ test runs 250ish catches. Up there.

Yep.

Crowe averaged 45 against the WIs in a career spanning 1981-1995. Makes him an ATG in my opinion..

Stewart's average when he WASN"T keeper was over 46. His career was ****ed up by England trying to play an extra bowler and have him bat low in the order. He should've been an opener and never had to keep.

 

[doesitmatter]

Alec Stewart ATG no way as he cannot play spin and he had a combined average of 25 in India/Pak/SL..Attractive player to watch when on song against FB's thats about it. btw WK-ing would have been a postive factor in playing spin as you would know how to read the ball from the hand still he was poor..

 

[kyear2]

To me Cook, Prior and KP has a chance to be seen as ATG's by the time they are finished. Cook unfortunately for him plays for the same country that produced the greatest collection of openers of any other nation and as such will be compared to and fall short of Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Boycott, Gooch ect. I personally dislike his style, but one cannot argue with his production, especially of late. How he does in the upcoming and other major tours will be crucial for his legacy.
K.P like Viv will not be measured soly by his numbers, but by his impact and ability to take over or change the course of a game. He can bat on most sufaces and now that he has given up the shorter forms of the game, that should give his test career his full focus.
Prior needs to continue to build on his batting while improving his keeping skills to be considered among the greats. But judging on how much he has improved of late, it seems that it is possible. He will never be Knott behind the stumps, but the closer he gets while maintaing his batting, England can only be bettered by.

 

[doesitmatter]

England gives more importance to "textbook" cricket rather than allow natural talent to flourish.May be one of the reason why less greats..exactly why ITB was the last one as he was a natural..IMO

 

[Red]

Alec Stewart ATG no way as he cannot play spin and he had a combined average of 25 in India/Pak/SL..Attractive player to watch when on song against FB's thats about it. btw WK-ing would have been a postive factor in playing spin as you would know how to read the ball from the hand still he was poor..

No one is saying he was an ATG. The point is, if he was allowed to open the batting and be relieved of the keeping gloves, he would have averaged somewhere in the vicinity of 45-50, making him a player of the same caliber as Mark Taylor, Langer, Slater, Haynes and other very good openers. And as an opener, you don't expect to face much spin, at least not til you're "in".

Stewart had his career stuffed up by poor selection I reckon. Cricket selection is simple in my opinion:

- Six best batsmen (one of which should have been Stewart)

- Best wicketkeeper who averages over 20-30 with the bat (should've been Jack Russell)

- Four best bowlers, one of whom is the best spinner

- IF there is an all-rounder who can average 30+ with the bat and 30ish with the ball, consider him instead of the sixth batsman.

 

[Valer]

Broad started very young though didn't he, 20 and came in to international cricket without too much experience of first class cricket. He's just about to turn 26, so say if he can bowl to similar level like he has been doing for another 8 years, he should be right up there.
ATG I don't know but will probably go down as a great English player because he may end up being England's all time wicket taker.

If Jimmy manages to get his average down to around 26 by the end of his career he will have done extremely well but still that's some way from ATG stats. Again he will be right up there in terms of great English bowlers though.

See below he needs to bowl noticable better than he current is to make the cut (from a stats pov).

I'd currently expect a ~25 final average if we can keep this up.

Final Average	Additional Wickets	Additional Runs		Future Average
26		450			10987			24.41555556
25		450			10376			23.05777778
24		450			9765			21.7
23		450			9154			20.34222222
22		450			8543			18.98444444
			
26		400			9687			24.2175
25		400			9126			22.815
24		400			8565			21.4125
23		400			8004			20.01
22		400			7443			18.6075
			
26		300			7087			23.62333333
25		300			6626			22.08666667
24		300			6165			20.55
23		300			5704			19.01333333
22		300			5243			17.47666667
			
			
26		200			4487			22.435
25		200			4126			20.63
24		200			3765			18.825
23		200			3404			17.02
22		200			3043			15.215

 

[intcricket]

England takes pride in poaching players from countries like Ireland, The Netherlands, Scotland.... and South Africa.

Rather than showing some faith in the young kids playing in their own country, they want to go out there and get a quick steal, devaluing their own cap and become a joke for the rest of the world to laugh on.

 

[fredfertang]

England takes pride in poaching players from countries like Ireland, The Netherlands, Scotland.... and South Africa.

Rather than showing some faith in the young kids playing in their own country, they want to go out there and get a quick steal, devaluing their own cap and become a joke for the rest of the world to laugh on.

The one thing funnier than a troll is a bitter and twisted troll - he'll be telling us next that India lost 4-0 to South Africa last summer - but I'll lay short odds that he'll still call the team Pakistan thumped in the winter England

 

[intcricket]

The one thing funnier than a troll is a bitter and twisted troll - he'll be telling us next that India lost 4-0 to South Africa last summer - but I'll lay short odds that he'll still call the team Pakistan thumped in the winter England

Oh ya. I forgot I've gotta abide by the jungle law and suck up... (I mean, subscribe) to everything SOME Brits say, to not hurt their fragile ego, to qualify as a non troll.

Forgive me Father, for I have sinned

PS- If you had an iota of intellect, you would agree with it, than get into a stupid slang fest which has nothing to do with the topic

And FTR, the last good player you produced was Alastair Cook. Then you outsourced the factory to the Saffies

 

[fredfertang]

Oh ya. I forgot I've gotta abide by the jungle law and suck up... (I mean, subscribe) to everything SOME Brits say, to not hurt their fragile ego, to qualify as a non troll.

Forgive me Father, for I have sinned

PS- If you had an iota of intellect, you would agree with it, than get into a stupid slang fest which has nothing to do with the topic

And FTR, the last good player you produced was Alastair Cook. Then you outsourced the factory to the Saffies

I'm sorry my friend, but I don't have the intellectual capacity to understand that postscript, even as edited

 

[weeman27bob]

Who have we poached from the Netherlands out of interest?

 

[Spark]

That will do.

 

[weeman27bob]

That will do.

I hope none of that was in the direction of my comment. There wasn't anything underlying in it, I've just never heard of England taking any Dutch players, and so was curious as to who it was.

 

[Spark]

It was a general thing. This is obviously a pretty tricky thread by definition, so if it's to stay open, trolling and trolling-engendered flamefests have to be kept to a minimum.

 

[fredfertang]

Who have we poached from the Netherlands out of interest?

I believe Ian Bell has been seen in a taxi wearing an orange shirt