Who was the better bowler: Glenn Mcgrath or Wasim Akram?

[BlazeDragon]

Oh please !!! Stop with all the imaginations and assumptions.

Never blamed the umpire or even called the decision dubious. Simply presenting the link and raising a valid point (and if you listen to the commentary in the clip you will know what I am trying to suggest) that it was so difficult for umpires to get those lbw decisions right and perhaps there were a fair no. of those that the umpires missed.

Maybe Mcgrath suffered similar fate, If I see, I will bring those to this discussion as well. I do have a preference for Wasim over Mcgrath but I do not for a moment consider Mcgrath any less of a bowler, so please stop with you agenda type comments.

The problem with the bolded part is that its just assumptions and there is a reverse logic that would apply to it as well. There were time where Wasim might have bowled it straight at first and then the late swing moved it away from the stumps. So it might have been that he got lucky with a lot of these decisions as well.

Maybe Mcgrath suffered similar fate, If I see, I will bring those to this discussion as well. I do have a preference for Wasim over Mcgrath but I do not for a moment consider Mcgrath any less of a bowler, so please stop with you agenda type comments.

"THE" WORST UMPIRE OF ALL TIME- 2 PLUMB LBW's NOT GIVEN IN PAKISTAN 1998- MCGRATH - YouTube

This link was posted twice here already.

There is no reason to think McGrath was generally "lucky" with the lbws. Bowling in a perfectly straight line and making it look out was a part of his skills and there is no reason he should be blamed for it. With him when it looked out it usually was because he was so consistent at bowling it straight.

 

[Darth018]

The problem with the bolded part is that its just assumptions and there is a reverse logic that would apply to it as well. There were time where Wasim might have bowled it straight at first and then the late swing moved it away from the stumps. So it might have been that he got lucky with a lot of these decisions as well.



"THE" WORST UMPIRE OF ALL TIME- 2 PLUMB LBW's NOT GIVEN IN PAKISTAN 1998- MCGRATH - YouTube

This link was posted twice here already.

There is no reason to think McGrath was generally "lucky" with the lbws. Bowling in a perfectly straight line and making it look out was a part of his skills and there is no reason he should be blamed for it. With him when it looked out it usually was because he was so consistent at bowling it straight.

Well put.

 

[robelinda]

I can make a video of EVERY lbw decision McGrath got, every wicket. That might shut some people up, especially those who ONLY remember the couple of dicey ones against Tendulkar -in particular- and just assume McGrath got hundreds more of the same dicey LBW decisions. I think some people just make up random stuff to suit their agenda. Lucky lbw bowler, thats a new one.

BTW, Sachin once edged a ball to third man for a boundary, I can safely say he got all his 30 million runs in the same manner.

 

[smash84]

Dwta.

Subtle genius is still genius. Watching highlight reels doesn't tell you everything (not saying that's you btw).

You watch McGrath land a ball outside off and move away, and you wonder why the batsman played at it.

But you don't see him taking the bloke apart for an over or two beforehand.. Bringing one back in off the deck, bowling a bouncer to keep him on the crease, maybe variations in length, etc.

So sure, you look at the wicket ball and think "Why did the bloke play at that?", but the man has been deconstructed over an over/ spell/ session.

Watch the clip of McGrath bowling to Warner in a T20 a couple of years back, and listen to him talk about bringing two back into him then taking the third one across him for a catch in the slips. It doesn't do a lot, just enough. It's another kind of genius.

And that was him. Landing it on the right line, at the right length, doing just enough. Time after time after time. What a bowler he was.

Nobody is saying that McGrath isn't a genius. McGrath had a very rare skill. His accuracy was mind boggling and of course the way he set batsmen up was also pure genius but to make it sound like "***y reverse swing" is a completely useless skill and the ability to consistently swing the new and old ball are not even an art that deserve to be appreciated is a little outlandish.

Donald, Ambrose, Lara, and a number of other contemporaries rate Wasim as the best that they ever played against (and these guys played against McGrath too). The point is not that these guys are absolutely right but that it is not outlandish to think that Wasim could be better for some.

 

[smash84]

BTW, Sachin once edged a ball to third man for a boundary, I can safely say he got all his 30 million runs in the same manner.

....well said

 

[Burgey]

Nobody is saying that McGrath isn't a genius. McGrath had a very rare skill. His accuracy was mind boggling and of course the way he set batsmen up was also pure genius but to make it sound like "***y reverse swing" is a completely useless skill and the ability to consistently swing the new and old ball are not even an art that deserve to be appreciated is a little outlandish.

Donald, Ambrose, Lara, and a number of other contemporaries rate Wasim as the best that they ever played against (and these guys played against McGrath too). The point is not that these guys are absolutely right but that it is not outlandish to think that Wasim could be better for some.

I'm not saying it isn't a skill. I'm saying it's an overt skill which is easy to look at and be wow'ed by. McGrath's method is far more subtle. Neither is less of a skill than the other, but one is easily identifiable and stands out, the other not so much.

 

[robelinda]

Where was all Wasim's amazing tricks when he played against England? Average of 30 against weak Poms....

 

[BlazeDragon]

I can make a video of EVERY lbw decision McGrath got, every wicket. That might shut some people up, especially those who ONLY remember the couple of dicey ones against Tendulkar -in particular- and just assume McGrath got hundreds more of the same dicey LBW decisions. I think some people just make up random stuff to suit their agenda. Lucky lbw bowler, thats a new one.

BTW, Sachin once edged a ball to third man for a boundary, I can safely say he got all his 30 million runs in the same manner.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Arachnodouche]

Pakistan never could afford as packed an offside cordon as Australia so regularly could. McGrath did pick up a hell lot of edges there to be honest.

Having said that, McGrath will go down in history as the greatest fast bowler of all time. He was badass from the get go, rarely if ever suffered slumps, and didn't have a noticeable decline even at the end. I can only imagine his legend growing in the years ahead.

 

[marc71178]

Pakistan never could afford as packed an offside cordon as Australia so regularly could. McGrath did pick up a hell lot of edges there to be honest.

And you know why they could afford as packed an offside? I reckon it might be because McGrath was so good that they knew he'd have the control to bowl to that field.

 

[Manee]

And you know why they could afford as packed an offside? I reckon it might be because McGrath was so good that they knew he'd have the control to bowl to that field.

Yes. That was a weird point by Arachnodouche. Perhaps referring to the fact that Pakistan never put a large total up?

 

[marc71178]

So in that case it's blaming Pakistan's batsmen and their fielders for Wasim not being as good as McGrath, interesting POV.

 

[Fusion]

So in that case it's blaming Pakistan's batsmen and their fielders for Wasim not being as good as McGrath, interesting POV.

Intangible factors like those do come into play though. It matters that the Australian fielding was much superior to Pakistan’s. Every catch that was taken off of McGrath builds his confidence and also put pressure on the next guy McGrath bowls to. Every catch that was dropped off of Wasim deflates his confidence and also allows the batsman to get settled in and go on for a big score. The powerful Australian batting lineup also played a part. If McGrath was defending a total, more than likely it was a formidable one. He could bowl aggressively and the opposing batsmen were already under pressure. If McGrath bowls first, he and his mates know that no matter how many runs they give up, their batting order was capable of making one more. How many times did Wasim come into bowl defending a paltry total? I will guarantee you a lot more than McGrath. How much did his average and SR suffer as a result? All of these intangibles do a lot for a bowler’s mind-set, confidence, game plan, and wicket taking ability. I’m not “blaming” McGrath for it, just stating that he had advantages as a whole that Wasim did not.

 

[weldone]

Where was all Wasim's amazing tricks when he played against England? Average of 30 against weak Poms....

GBPs are very valuable when you convert them to Pakistani currency

Note: I-am-not-serious alert

 

[smash84]

yep.....how much does a four off a misfielding per inning cost to the bowlers average if the bowler takes around 4 wpm?

 

[smash84]

GBPs are very valuable when you convert them to Pakistani currency

Note: I-am-not-serious alert

Thankfully that Darth troll has been banned

 

[BlazeDragon]

Intangible factors like those do come into play though. It matters that the Australian fielding was much superior to Pakistan’s. Every catch that was taken off of McGrath builds his confidence and also put pressure on the next guy McGrath bowls to. Every catch that was dropped off of Wasim deflates his confidence and also allows the batsman to get settled in and go on for a big score. The powerful Australian batting lineup also played a part. If McGrath was defending a total, more than likely it was a formidable one. He could bowl aggressively and the opposing batsmen were already under pressure. If McGrath bowls first, he and his mates know that no matter how many runs they give up, their batting order was capable of making one more. How many times did Wasim come into bowl defending a paltry total? I will guarantee you a lot more than McGrath. How much did his average and SR suffer as a result? All of these intangibles do a lot for a bowler’s mind-set, confidence, game plan, and wicket taking ability. I’m not “blaming” McGrath for it, just stating that he had advantages as a whole that Wasim did not.

A good post was made earlier on a another thread about the fielding:

Thought of even more reasons why this is just BS excuses. Because run-outs are a part of fielding!

The amount of times Ponting and Co. ran a player out and took wickets away from their bowlers should be even more than Pakistani fielding errors.

The amount of brilliant run-outs Aussie fielders managed over the Pakistani fielders and made the wicket count even lesser for the bowlers and may as well give Aussie bowlers the disadvantage here. Arguably they are even higher in number than Pakistani fielding mistakes.

As for the the powerful Aussie batting line up, you can always counter that with the powerful Aussie bowling line up and the amount of competing Mcgrath had to do with his teammates with that. Mcgrath would have much better records too if he wan't sharing all the glory with all the other bowlers in his team.

I will admit that in ODI's the bowling was quite close but in tests the Aussie bowlers were far ahead statistically.

These are stats for the bowling in the portion of the career Mcgrath and Wasim played together:

Australia
Pakistan

So no offence here but in the end it all just sounds like a bunch of excuses considering that it all evens out.

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

he bowled line and length with ridiculous discipline, ofcourse that takes skill but essentially thats all he did.

That's all he did? Line and length, straight up and down? And international top order batsmen were muppets to keep on edging 'em ramrod straight deliveries behind for 15 years?


1) Off cutter
2) In seamer
3) Away seamer
4) Leg cutter
5) Reverse swing
6) Deceptively pacy effort ball
7) Conventional outswinger
8) Conventional inswinger


Now tell me which of these 8 attributes did McGrath not possess in his repertoire? He may have used them more or less, depending upon his bowling plan, but isn't a "one trick pony" essentially supposed to possess no extra skills?

 

[r3alist]

Dwta.

Subtle genius is still genius. Watching highlight reels doesn't tell you everything (not saying that's you btw).

You watch McGrath land a ball outside off and move away, and you wonder why the batsman played at it.

But you don't see him taking the bloke apart for an over or two beforehand.. Bringing one back in off the deck, bowling a bouncer to keep him on the crease, maybe variations in length, etc.

So sure, you look at the wicket ball and think "Why did the bloke play at that?", but the man has been deconstructed over an over/ spell/ session.

Watch the clip of McGrath bowling to Warner in a T20 a couple of years back, and listen to him talk about bringing two back into him then taking the third one across him for a catch in the slips. It doesn't do a lot, just enough. It's another kind of genius.

And that was him. Landing it on the right line, at the right length, doing just enough. Time after time after time. What a bowler he was.

I agree about the variations and planning and exposing a batsmen.

But it's still the same skillset, that's really all he is doing again and again, applying the same plan of attack, which is unlike akram who would bowl and employ radically different styles.

 

[Son Of Coco]

The powerful Australian batting lineup also played a part. If McGrath was defending a total, more than likely it was a formidable one. He could bowl aggressively and the opposing batsmen were already under pressure. If McGrath bowls first, he and his mates know that no matter how many runs they give up, their batting order was capable of making one more. How many times did Wasim come into bowl defending a paltry total? I will guarantee you a lot more than McGrath. How much did his average and SR suffer as a result? All of these intangibles do a lot for a bowler’s mind-set, confidence, game plan, and wicket taking ability. I’m not “blaming” McGrath for it, just stating that he had advantages as a whole that Wasim did not.

McGrath bowled they same way whether they had posted a big score or not. See England 2005 in the 1st Test for an example. I don't think great bowlers are as affected by the circumstances around them as others are. Although I agree that Wasim would've had other extenuating circumstances to deal with that McGrath did not...I just don't agree they would've necessarily been the ones you mention. I think the undermining and lack of team cohesion that seems to have been a part of Pakistani cricket even when they were going well would've been a bigger distraction.

I don't think knowing your batting was strong and thus you could give up as many runs as you like would've even come into it for McGrath. He hated giving up runs, and rarely gave them away easily.

The one massive disadvantage he had over Wasim was the wickets he played on for a large part of his career. How he performed on batsman-friendly wickets was outstanding.