Who is the worst pace bowler to take over 300 test wickets?

[Black_Warrior]

I didn't comment on whether they belong in the argument. Let me humour you. Here's why you're trolling:

1. Obvious troll username
2. You picked the two of them in the OP, as though they are the same bowler, making your intentions beyond transparent
3. See 1 & 2

This doesn't make sense. I am someone who rates Anderson and Broad quite highly, especially over the last few years but I don't see why a conversation on whether they are the worst bowlers to take 300 wickets is not a legitimate conversation. Secondly the username is absolutely irrelevant to this conversation.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Harsh to put Kapil Dev in this list to be honest. I know 29 is not necessarily a flattering average but from what i read about that period, almost everyone in the opposition used to respect him as a genuine wicket taking threat.

 

[GIMH]

This doesn't make sense. I am someone who rates Anderson and Broad quite highly, especially over the last few years but I don't see why a conversation on whether they are the worst bowlers to take 300 wickets is not a legitimate conversation. Secondly the username is absolutely irrelevant to this conversation.

It's not difficult to understand. I'm not saying they don't belong in such a conversation. I'm saying this poster has started the conversation specifically to name them, and evidenced this by referencing them as a pair rather than attempting to pick one. It's Trolling 101.

 

[Tec15]

Harsh to put Kapil Dev in this list to be honest. I know 29 is not necessarily a flattering average but from what i read about that period, almost everyone in the opposition used to respect him as a genuine wicket taking threat.

He was a genuine threat until 1985. After that he only took fivefers in two tours to the West Indies and Australia and none at all at home. Was also particularly poor in the 90's and only hung around to get Hadlee's record. So he belongs in the conversation, but I agree he's better than the rest on this list.

 

[Dan]

I think it has to be Lee. As much as I rate him in his 2008-era attack leader spell, and think he was better than he actually turned out to be (damn the "be a 150km/h bouncer/yorker enforcer because McGrath's both the workhorse and the attack leader" thing), he simply didn't actually do it.

Vaas was an absolute gun on dead tracks (for seamers), and was the only quick of note to ever come out of SL pre-Malinga. Such a smart bowler, and he's criminally underrated. Does not deserve to be in this discussion at all.

Zaheer had his spell of being the best bowler in the world circa-2011. Swung the ball at quick-enough pace, reversed it, was canny enough to get blokes out, made Graeme Smith cry. Not terrible.

Never saw Kapil live, so can't really comment. Maybe he's worse in a pure bowling sense, or maybe I'm Moeen-ing it up with a "he can bat, therefore he can't be as good as a pure bowler" argument. Something something Appeal to Spreadsheet.

Ntini? Hmmm, maybe he was worse than Lee. Reliant on his awkward angle, pace and bounce -- so when things went wrong for Ntini, he could look toothless. But when he was on, that angle-in, seam-away MO was deadly.

Broad may not be an ATG bowler, per se, but he's a bowler of ATG spells. I can't think of another bowler who is so randomly destructive while seemingly doing nothing different to usual. As much as I want to hate the guy and call him ****, he's a serious bowler.

Anderson has bowled with pace and movement in an era that, historically, hasn't been especially kind to the bowler-folk amongst us. When he's hooping the ball around corners he's damn near unplayable; when conditions aren't in his favour he's economical and still incisive. Certainly above Ntini.

I suppose the other argument could be for Mitchell Johnson. Spent probably, what, 200 of those 300 Test wickets being absolute shite and fluking an 8-fer whenever he played in Perth or South Africa? All came together in 2013/14 for the Ashes and the Saffa series that followed. Had an immense ceiling but, a bit like Lee, he didn't actually do it for most of his career.


So I reckon its Lee vs. Ntini vs. Johnson vs. Zaheer (with the only thing making it competitive being my pro-Lee stance). Anderson, Kapil, Broad and Vaas a class above, the rest sitting in various classes above that.

You know what, Lee's a dirty Tory. Screw my pro-Lee 'stymied by his role in the attack' argument. He's objectively the worst to 300.

 

[Prince EWS]

1. Obvious troll username

When he joined originally, I thought this too, as Avada has this weird habit of picking usernames that are basically spoofs of existing users for his multiple accounts. However, Tec15 seems to have used this username on other forums and on twitter for years now.

 

[Gob]

Tec69

 

[mr_mister]

def Mitch Johnson. So overrated

 

[Gnske]

Sharma, when he gets there.

 

[watson]

Used to love watching Kapil bowl. All artist.

 

[Burgey]

It's Lee, comfortably. Had a great year and a half from debut until he hurt his elbow fielding vs West Indies, then bowled consistently two lengths when he was in the Test side until about a year and a half before he retired. He was also single handedly responsible for a period where Australia had a woeful over rate and got fined for it. Every test he missed in that period, there was never an over rate problem.

Plus he's a Liberal. Loves Tony Abbott. And as much as I dislike Piers Morgan, what Lee did to him in the nets at the MCG just underlines what a scumbag he and his Jabronies are. Just a ****.

 

[AldoRaine18]

Vaas, easily.

 

[FBU]

A look at the wickets taken of batsmen who average over 50.00. Broad seems to be the best

Zaheer Khan - Hayden (10) Sangakkara (6) Pointing (5) Hussey (5) de Villiers (3) Kallis (3) Amla (2) YKhan (2) Chanderpaul (2) Lara (2) Warner (1) Flower (1) Yousuf (1) Swaugh (1) Mathews (1) - 13.5% of wickets of batsmen who average over 50.00

Brett Lee - Dravid (7) Tendulkar (5) Chanderpaul (3) de Villiers (3) Kallis (3) Lara (2) Amla (1) YKhan (1) - 8% of batsmen

Stuart Broad - de Villiers (10) Amla (7), SSmith (6) YKhan (5) Warner (5) Chanderpaul (5) Tendulkar (3) Ponting (3) MHussey (3) Kallis (3) Dravid (2) Voges (2) Sangakkara (1) Yousuf (1) - 16.8%

Chaminda Vaas - Ponting (6) Flower (5) Hayden (4) Tendulkar (3) Dravid (3) YKhan (3) Kallis (3) Chanderpaul (3) Yousuf (1) Lara (1) - 9.1% of batsmen

James Anderson - Tendulkar (9) Kallis (7) Sangakkara (7) Warner (7) /SSmith (5) Dravid (5) Chanderpaul (4) Ponting (4) Mathews (3) de Villiers (3) Hussey (3) Amla (2) Voges (1) YKhan (1) Yousuf (1) Lara (1) - 14.5% of batsmen

Kapil Dev - Border (10) Richards (7) Miandad (7) Arif (1) - 5.7% of batsmen

 

[Gnske]

Broad the only man here to twice dismiss Bradman's son, clearly the best.

 

[The Sean]

Harsh to put Kapil Dev in this list to be honest. I know 29 is not necessarily a flattering average but from what i read about that period, almost everyone in the opposition used to respect him as a genuine wicket taking threat.

Agreed. Notwithstanding his playing on too long, being bowled (or bowling himself) into the ground with minimal support on subcontinental featherbeds for so much of his career also had a detrimental effect on his average and strike rate. He was a wonderful bowler, and a magnificent all-round cricketer.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

"who is the worst out of these 23 best wickettakers of all-time"

really odd question when you think of it

 

[amtrader]

For me it is Stuart Broad..

 

[fredfertang]

"who is the worst out of these 23 best wickettakers of all-time"

really odd question when you think of it

Indeed, as when they were on song they were/are all brilliant

One observation I would make is that for the last couple of years or so Kapil was consistently very ordinary indeed

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I think Zaheer and Lee is a bit closer than some people are saying here. Always liked Lee though so maybe just a bit biased. Both had a period where they were exceptional and periods where they really didn't warrant selection, ended up with similar overall records. Zaheer probably slightly ahead overall since his peak was longer. Though you could make an argument that Lee was a more valuable player based on his decent batting and being pretty great in the field. I think I'd pick Ntini if he was in the poll as he was never really one of the best bowlers in the world at any point in his career, which the other two were. Broad, Anderson and Kapil all better IMO.

 

[Black_Warrior]

"who is the worst out of these 23 best wickettakers of all-time"

really odd question when you think of it

Indeed, as when they were on song they were/are all brilliant

Yes it's possible that none of the bowlers on this poll plus Johnson who has been mentioned by quite a few people, belong in the 'worst bowlers to take 300 wickets'. That's up for discussion.

But if you're questioning how someone can be worse if they take 300 wickets, and hence this discussion is not odd one, then that's not necessarily a legitimate concern.

It's quite possible for a variety of factors that a certain bowler was able to play a considerable amount of games and ended up taking a lot of wickets. Take Ishant Sharma, guy has already played 68 test matches and has 200 wickets and is very likely that he will get to 300.

But there are a lot of different factors as to why that was possible, besides his own skill, talent, ability. Bowlers with better ability barely played half of what he has managed to play so far.

So, point remains, getting 300 wickets does not necessarily make this conversation an odd one.

Now whether the bowlers in the poll belong here or not, well that's we we have this thread for, to discuss and it has been a good one so far.