Who is the best upcoming player?

[Langeveldt]

Not that he deserves to be compared to Sir Viv of course, considering that he hasnt accomplished anything in his career yet.

Thats a bit harsh

I'd have said his innings to secure the Ashes (luck or not) was one of the most high quality under pressure knocks anyone has played in recent history..

And averaging well over 50 in the ODI game, after smoting SA's bowlers for hundred after hundred, albeit in a losing cause..

Here's me sticking up for Pietersen again..

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

After MacGill, Australia don't really have any quality spin reserves. And the way I see it, both England and Australia have crap bowling reserves in general.

"After MacGill" says plenty really. He's one of the better spin bowlers in world cricket, and better than the first choice spinner for any country aside from Sri Lanka and India. England's second choice spinner would be Giles, and after that Dalrymple. So yes, Australia's spin reserves are better than England's, which is all I said.

Australia's pace bowling reserves are average, simple as that. Assuming McGrath, Lee and Clark are top of the pile for now, there's Gillespie and Kasprowicz who are potentially past it, Bracken who is possibly an ODI specialist and then guys like Johnson and Tait who have plenty of potential but are totally unproven. I don't think that's any worse than most countries, but if McGrath and Lee broke down there'd be obvious problems, similar to if Hoggard and Harmison broke down for England.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Everyone's reserves suck. Hence why they are "reserves".

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

"After MacGill" says plenty really. He's one of the better spin bowlers in world cricket, and better than the first choice spinner for any country aside from Sri Lanka and India. England's second choice spinner would be Giles, and after that Dalrymple. So yes, Australia's spin reserves are better than England's, which is all I said.

But I mean, let's face it, Australia have two world class spinners right now, but after they bow out, who then? One man stands between England and Australia in terms of depth of spin bowling. That's not much when you consider that the backup Aussie spinner isn't exactly the heir to the front-line role. MacGill is 35 and there really isn't any significant youngster in the spin department for either country atm... aside from Jack.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

But I mean, let's face it, Australia have two world class spinners right now, but after they bow out, who then? One man stands between England and Australia in terms of depth of spin bowling. That's not much when you consider that the backup Aussie spinner isn't exactly the heir to the front-line role. MacGill is 35 and there really isn't any significant youngster in the spin department for either country atm... aside from Jack.

Obviously you don't rate Dan Cullen, but given the number of people that do rate him and the fact that he's played in both the test and ODI side already, I think he qualifies as a "significant youngster". He's no replacement for Warne obviously, but he's not bad as your third choice guy. Aside from him there's a bunch of young guys like Cullen Bailey who may or may not turn out to be any good. We'll know in a couple of seasons if Australia have any backup for Warne and MacGill, but I think it's fair to say that if Australia's #1 spinner broke down right now they have better cover than most sides would, and certainly better than England.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Obviously you don't rate Dan Cullen, but given the number of people that do rate him and the fact that he's played in both the test and ODI side already, I think he qualifies as a "significant youngster". He's no replacement for Warne obviously, but he's not bad as your third choice guy. Aside from him there's a bunch of young guys like Cullen Bailey who may or may not turn out to be any good. We'll know in a couple of seasons if Australia have any backup for Warne and MacGill, but I think it's fair to say that if Australia's #1 spinner broke down right now they have better cover than most sides would, and certainly better than England.

I rate Cullen as much as I do Dalrymple. Both need to produce stronger results before I consider them significant. Let's face it, had Bangladesh not been on the cards, Cullen wouldn't be very close to the Australian first team right now. Well, not Tests anyway.

 

[tooextracool]

Doesn't matter if other batsmen are doing it better than Pietersen. Pietersen will be a sure pick ahead of them because of the way he does it. The energy and attitude he brings to the England lineup is more than Bell, Collingwood or Cook do. If you ask any Australian bowler to name the dangermen in the English lineup, I assure you that Pietersen's name will come ahead of those three.

If anything Collingwood probably has the best attitude and most determination out of all the players on that list. I think id prefer dogged, determined, and mentally sound players to brash, arrogant and bordering on idiotic players like Pietersen in my side to be honest.
If Pietersen gets a hold of himself and scores runs in the warm ups, then he deserves a place in the side, but for him to be considered a certainity when other players are performing better and scoring more runs, well thats just wrong. One of the reasons why Pietersen is batting like he is is because hes being told that hes a certainity in the side. Pietersen has always been a better player when hes under pressure or has something to prove, and i think hed play far better if he was given a warning and told that hes not irreplaceable.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I rate Cullen as much as I do Dalrymple. Both need to produce stronger results before I consider them significant. Let's face it, had Bangladesh not been on the cards, Cullen wouldn't be very close to the Australian first team right now. Well, not Tests anyway.

Yeah, because of Warne and MacGill. If they were both injured tomorrow, Cullen would be the test spinner. At the Allan Border Medal last year, all members of the Australian team were asked who they thought the biggest talent in Australian domestic cricket was, and everyone said Dan Cullen. Obviously he's not a world beater or anything and you'd want someone better as your first choice spinner in tests, but he's got more of a test future than Dalrymple does.

After Cullen I'd guess it'd be either Cam White because he can bat, or Cullen Bailey. Bailey took some wickets for Australia A at least.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Yeah, because of Warne and MacGill. If they were both injured tomorrow, Cullen would be the test spinner. At the Allan Border Medal last year, all members of the Australian team were asked who they thought the biggest talent in Australian domestic cricket was, and everyone said Dan Cullen. Obviously he's not a world beater or anything and you'd want someone better as your first choice spinner in tests, but he's got more of a test future than Dalrymple does.

After Cullen I'd guess it'd be either Cam White because he can bat, or Cullen Bailey. Bailey took some wickets for Australia A at least.

But the question is this, would he be the Test spinner because Australia mandate that a spinner play and he's the best option? Or do you genuinely think that he is - right now - a good enough bowler to demand a place in the team, therefore demanding that Australia play a spinner in a post-Warne/MacGill climate?

 

[tooextracool]

Averaging 40 in test cricket as a specialist batsman would be cause for dropping on a lot of teams (except NZ).

44-45 is pretty much expected of a specialist batsman these days.

Marvan Attapattu and Jayasuriya both have relatively low averages, Ganguly another who played for years with a 40 odd average. Then theres also Chris Gayle and Ramnaresh Sarwan.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If anything Collingwood probably has the best attitude and most determination out of all the players on that list. I think id prefer dogged, determined, and mentally sound players to brash, arrogant and bordering on idiotic players like Pietersen in my side to be honest.

Irrelevant. I assure you that the there is no team in Test cricket that is even half as wary of Collingwood's powers as they are of Pietersen's. It's because one takes the game to you and can turn a match on his own bat, and the other doesn't.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Marvan Attapattu and Jayasuriya both have relatively low averages, Ganguly another who played for years with a 40 odd average. Then theres also Chris Gayle and Ramnaresh Sarwan.

Right. Atapattu was who I was thinking of from Sri Lanka. For the life of me I couldn't remember who was my frame of reference just then. Atapattu doesn't even average 39 in Test cricket, but if fit, he's a sure starter.

 

[tooextracool]

Sorry, but who do England have in their batting reserves that compare to someone like Jaques? England's bowling reserves (excluding spin, obviously) are certainly better than Australia's at the moment, but there's no way their batting is. There are players who can't make the Australian test batting lineup at the moment who would make any other team in the world. I don't think you can say that about England.

Someone like Jacques whos done what exactly?
May i ask which player in Australia has averaged 40 odd for 4 years in test match cricket and is currently not even in the running for the Australian test squad?
Let me also remind you that if Vaughan were fit, England would have 2 of Cook/Collingwood/Bell on the bench and you'd have to wonder which team in the world would not want the 2 players averaging over 50 in intl cricket plus Owais Shah in their squads. Throw in Butcher and you have quite a list there.
Then there are players like Ed Joyce who dont even come under consideration.

 

[tooextracool]

Thats a bit harsh

I'd have said his innings to secure the Ashes (luck or not) was one of the most high quality under pressure knocks anyone has played in recent history..

And averaging well over 50 in the ODI game, after smoting SA's bowlers for hundred after hundred, albeit in a losing cause..

Here's me sticking up for Pietersen again..

i dont rate his Ashes innings other than being a flash in the pan effort than involved an immense amount of luck and poor bowling. It may have won England the Ashes but in reality, England didnt win them, Australia lost them.
His ODI efforts are irrelevant, other than smashing Murali around his test career since the Ashes are not even worthy of any mention.

 

[tooextracool]

Australia's pace bowling reserves are average, simple as that. Assuming McGrath, Lee and Clark are top of the pile for now, there's Gillespie and Kasprowicz who are potentially past it, Bracken who is possibly an ODI specialist and then guys like Johnson and Tait who have plenty of potential but are totally unproven. I don't think that's any worse than most countries, but if McGrath and Lee broke down there'd be obvious problems, similar to if Hoggard and Harmison broke down for England.

If Harmison and Hoggard broke down, provided everyone else in England was fit we'd have an attack of Simon Jones, Andrew Flintoff and James Anderson.
Thats still arguably one of the best bowling attacks in the world.
If Mcgrath and Lee broke down you'd probably have Bracken, Watson, Clark and Tait.
No prizes for which one id rather face.

 

[social]

Someone like Jacques whos done what exactly?
May i ask which player in Australia has averaged 40 odd for 4 years in test match cricket and is currently not even in the running for the Australian test squad?
Let me also remind you that if Vaughan were fit, England would have 2 of Cook/Collingwood/Bell on the bench and you'd have to wonder which team in the world would not want the 2 players averaging over 50 in intl cricket plus Owais Shah in their squads. Throw in Butcher and you have quite a list there.
Then there are players like Ed Joyce who dont even come under consideration.

Aus younger players are unknown quantities because of lack of opportunities to date.

However, guys like Jacques have superior fc records to Eng's "back-up" and there is nothing to suggest that they wouldnt be as least as successful.

BTW, I still think it's highly debateable as to whether Vaughan is worth his spot in the team anyway - he's an average test bat and a liability in the field. Now that Flintoff has been made captain, Vaughan's recall is likely to be a case of panic stations.

 

[social]

But I mean, let's face it, Australia have two world class spinners right now, but after they bow out, who then? One man stands between England and Australia in terms of depth of spin bowling. That's not much when you consider that the backup Aussie spinner isn't exactly the heir to the front-line role. MacGill is 35 and there really isn't any significant youngster in the spin department for either country atm... aside from Jack.

Macgill and Warne have 2 or 3 years minimum left - that's plenty of time for Cullen to mature and/or others to come through.

Fast bowling back-up is more of an immediate concern.

 

[tooextracool]

Irrelevant. I assure you that the there is no team in Test cricket that is even half as wary of Collingwood's powers as they are of Pietersen's. It's because one takes the game to you and can turn a match on his own bat, and the other doesn't.

Yet at the end of the day, all that matters are the runs and if Collingwood is scoring more runs, then logically he is the player to pick. The world is not aware of a lot of things or perhaps a better word to use is that they are 'mistaken', it took them almost a decade to realise that Dravid was infact one of the best players of his generation while players like Gilchrist got plenty of credit for pasting bowlers around the park. Yet i know id rather pick dravid than gilchrist.

 

[social]

Yet at the end of the day, all that matters are the runs and if Collingwood is scoring more runs, then logically he is the player to pick. The world is not aware of a lot of things or perhaps a better word to use is that they are 'mistaken', it took them almost a decade to realise that Dravid was infact one of the best players of his generation while players like Gilchrist got plenty of credit for pasting bowlers around the park. Yet i know id rather pick dravid than gilchrist.

At no. 3 or as a wk/batsman?

I dont mind Collingwood - scores runs when they count on many an occasion

Bell is the guy for whom the jury is still out. He's scored the vast majority of his runs against very weak attacks.

 

[tooextracool]

Aus younger players are unknown quantities because of lack of opportunities to date.

Cant see how players like Clarke, Katich, Hodge and Watson and Symonds have had any less opportunities than Bell, Collingwood, Cook and Shah to be honest. All those players were given runs in the side and found out either as being incapable or dropped for some other reason. Or maybe it speaks more about the Australian selectors because none of those players have exactly put their hands up and warranted selection thereafter.

BTW, I still think it's highly debateable as to whether Vaughan is worth his spot in the team anyway - he's an average test bat and a liability in the field. Now that Flintoff has been made captain, Vaughan's recall is likely to be a case of panic stations.

That may very well be the case but whatever way you look at it, you'd still have a player averaging 45 odd on the bench. Personally i think if Vaughan played as a player alone he'd probably average a lot higher and it wouldnt be much different from the current scenario.