Who is the best old ball bowler of all-time?

[subshakerz]

Steyn was a fair bit faster than Wasim, Except when bowling within himself late career for spells. Live, I remember watching him clocked at 156 in the IPL (which does tend to be a bit suspect), and 152 in RSA (which tends to be more realistic).

I know Wasim had slowed a fair by then, but he was often struggling to hit mid 130s by the time we were seeing a lot of the gun. I'm pretty sure he hit mid 140s on some balls earlier in career, but Steyn had spells averaging mid to late 140s that I watched.

I don't have a particularly confident opinion on Steyn or Imran vs Wasim for reverse. But your impression of Wasim's reverse quality simply doesn't stand up in relation to Waqar. Wasim was much, much better with seam, bounce etc. But they have nearly identical records playing together. Where is Waqar catching up to be even remotely in the same league if Wasim was also a better reverse bowler?

Waqar was slightly more effective at knocking the tail in his younger days than Wasim and new batsmen at the crease with his inswinging yorker. For set bats, I would edge it to Wasim. Waqar had a yard more pace than Wasim too.

I do think it is close though as to who is better with the old ball. I just think Wasim was more adaptable with the old ball. Waqar slightly more destructive I grant you in his prime but then that wasn't his entire career.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Steyn was a fair bit faster than Wasim, Except when bowling within himself late career for spells. Live, I remember watching him clocked at 156 in the IPL (which does tend to be a bit suspect), and 152 in RSA (which tends to be more realistic).

I know Wasim had slowed a fair by then, but he was often struggling to hit mid 130s by the time we were seeing a lot of the gun. I'm pretty sure he hit mid 140s on some balls earlier in career, but Steyn had spells averaging mid to late 140s that I watched.

I don't have a particularly confident opinion on Steyn or Imran vs Wasim for reverse. But your impression of Wasim's reverse quality simply doesn't stand up in relation to Waqar. Wasim was much, much better with seam, bounce etc. But they have nearly identical records playing together. Where is Waqar catching up to be even remotely in the same league if Wasim was also a better reverse bowler?

Yep Steyn could crank up to the 150s

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Steyn has perhaps the most impressive achievements, bowling out ATG Ind lineups(prime Sehwag and Tendulkar) in conditions they mastered and on deadest tracks

 

[subshakerz]

Steyn has perhaps the most impressive achievements, bowling out ATG Ind lineups(prime Sehwag and Tendulkar) in conditions they mastered and on deadest tracks

Those were new ball spells though.

 

[Bolo.]

Waqar was slightly more effective at knocking the tail in his younger days than Wasim and new batsmen at the crease with his inswinging yorker. For set bats, I would edge it to Wasim. Waqar had a yard more pace than Wasim too.

I do think it is close though as to who is better with the old ball. I just think Wasim was more adaptable with the old ball. Waqar slightly more destructive I grant you in his prime but then that wasn't his entire career.

I'd agree, and reckon I'd give the edge to Wasim for old ball bowling overall (no strong opinion). But not for reverse. Wasim was a top tier old ball bowler even if it wasn't reversing. Waqar was probably the worst of the ATGs when it wasn't reversing, and is still a very reasonable call for GOAT old ball bowler.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Those were new ball spells though.

My mistake. Mixed up two separate incidents

 

[shortpitched713]

Why are so many putting Wasim over Waqar?

I haven't looked at the scorecards yet, but from memory I remember Waqar being the reverse swing Yorker king of all time. Wasim was great too, but not a Waqaresue phenomenon.

 

[shortpitched713]

Steyn was a fair bit faster than Wasim, Except when bowling within himself late career for spells. Live, I remember watching him clocked at 156 in the IPL (which does tend to be a bit suspect), and 152 in RSA (which tends to be more realistic).

I know Wasim had slowed a fair by then, but he was often struggling to hit mid 130s by the time we were seeing a lot of the gun. I'm pretty sure he hit mid 140s on some balls earlier in career, but Steyn had spells averaging mid to late 140s that I watched.

I don't have a particularly confident opinion on Steyn or Imran vs Wasim for reverse. But your impression of Wasim's reverse quality simply doesn't stand up in relation to Waqar. Wasim was much, much better with seam, bounce etc. But they have nearly identical records playing together. Where is Waqar catching up to be even remotely in the same league if Wasim was also a better reverse bowler?

Waqar was best at reverse swing, imo.

My order for the 3 Pakistanis when it comes to reverse swing:

Waqar
Wasim
Imran

 

[OverratedSanity]

But your impression of Wasim's reverse quality simply doesn't stand up in relation to Waqar. Wasim was much, much better with seam, bounce etc. But they have nearly identical records playing together. Where is Waqar catching up to be even remotely in the same league if Wasim was also a better reverse bowler?

Hmm, that's a simplistic way of looking at it isnt it? Waqar had identical numbers overall, but over his career its very hard to make a case he was better than Wasim, apart from that short 5 year peak until 94. He could also only swing it back in, unlike Wasim who could do both. This is precisely why once Waqar's pace went post back injury, his reverse was nowhere near as threatening because inswingers are easier to deal with at less than express pace and was thoroughly hittable.

Wasim had the guile and skill (and ability to swing it both ways with the old ball which is very rare) to be a consistent threat even bowling low 130s. Late in his career even in decline, he bowled some of the best spells of reverse swing I've seen in the series in SL and WI in 2000.

 

[Bolo.]

Hmm, that's a simplistic way of looking at it isnt it? Waqar had identical numbers overall, but over his career its very hard to make a case he was better than Wasim, apart from that short 5 year peak until 94. He could also only swing it back in, unlike Wasim who could do both. This is precisely why once Waqar's pace went post back injury, his reverse was nowhere near as threatening because inswingers are easier to deal with at less than express pace and was thoroughly hittable.

Wasim had the guile and skill (and ability to swing it both ways with the old ball which is very rare) to be a consistent threat even bowling low 130s. Late in his career even in decline, he bowled some of the best spells of reverse swing I've seen in the series in SL and WI in 2000.

I'm not making a case for him being the same quality as an overall bowler overall, despite the numbers. But I think they are close enough that he must have been better at reverse, because there is an absolute chasm in their abilities with the old ball otherwise.

Yip, this mostly only applies to his peak. It was so good that, even if short, it puts him as comfortably the best reverse bowler I have seen (which only leaves Imran as a question mark for me, who I didn't see in tests).

Looking at where they performed well supports this. Waqar is significantly ahead in Pakistan, where reverse has been dominant. He's well behind overall away, and very far behind in countries that reverse was a minor factor in. But he's ahead in SL and RSA, where reverse could be a major factor.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm not making a case for him being the same quality as an overall bowler overall, despite the numbers. But I think they are close enough that he must have been better at reverse, because there is an absolute chasm in their abilities with the old ball otherwise.

Yip, this mostly only applies to his peak. It was so good that, even if short, it puts him as comfortably the best reverse bowler I have seen (which only leaves Imran as a question mark for me, who I didn't see in tests).

Looking at where they performed well supports this. Waqar is significantly ahead in Pakistan, where reverse has been dominant. He's well behind overall away, and very far behind in countries that reverse was a minor factor in. But he's ahead in SL and RSA, where reverse could be a major factor.

SA was mainly new ball spells later in his career.

I agree with Overrated, Waqars peak may be obscuring who is more effective overall in reverse. Wasim still was potent in reverse when his pace had left him. Waqar late 90s was hit or miss, but I noticed that set bats could negotiate him better than Wasim.

 

[Bolo.]

SA was mainly new ball spells later in his career.

I agree with Overrated, Waqars peak may be obscuring who is more effective overall in reverse. Wasim still was potent in reverse when his pace had left him. Waqar late 90s was hit or miss, but I noticed that set bats could negotiate him better than Wasim.

I'm not sure who was better with reverse outside Waqar's peak. Definitely Wasim when looking at the 130km version of Waqar, regardless of Wasim's pace. But I think the 140s version of Waqar was probably better than the 130s version of Wasim, cos he was still picking up wickets really fast outside his peak when he had some juice. No worries if you want to rank Wasim ahead here, But I think it's close at least.

I am sure that Waqar was much better in his peak. I don't think this is realistically debatable. And Waqar's peak was pretty much half his career wickets. His peak more than covers whatever advantage Wasim (possibly) had outside of it.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm not sure who was better with reverse outside Waqar's peak. Definitely Wasim when looking at the 130km version of Waqar, regardless of Wasim's pace. But I think the 140s version of Waqar was probably better than the 130s version of Wasim, cos he was still picking up wickets really fast outside his peak when he had some juice. No worries if you want to rank Wasim ahead here, But I think it's close at least.

I am sure that Waqar was much better in his peak. I don't think this is realistically debatable. And Waqar's peak was pretty much half his career wickets. His peak more than covers whatever advantage Wasim (possibly) had outside of it.

I don't disagree here.

 

[kyear2]

I go the complete opposite direction. His tendency to often bowl a bit short and reverse both ways led to a lot of wasted balls. He's also the slowest of the 4, which is incredibly useful for reverse. The late movement is what does quality bats in.

I reckon he is clearly the worst reverse bowler you are mentioning. There is still a decent argument for him being the best old ball bowler though. Better than these three in several other ways. Nothing tops quality reverse, but the ball isn't always reversing.

What were the other ways if you don't mind me asking.

 

[Bolo.]

What were the other ways if you don't mind me asking.

Mainly cutters in relation to the people being discussed. Yorkers, slower balls, bounce. Jack of all trades.

 

[kyear2]

Mainly cutters in relation to the people being discussed. Yorkers, slower balls, bounce. Jack of all trades.

On one hand Wasim is super elite, he kinda easily wins this poll, made the Wisden and Cricinfo teams, peer ratings is through the roof.

But then his numbers against Australia, England, India and SA (small sample size), and all a little to a lot higher than one would want. Not to add his much higher than average amount of tail end wickets.

Is the early career struggles (shared by Sobers and others btw) and post peak diabetes explain all of that away?

 

[Bolo.]

On one hand Wasim is super elite, he kinda easily wins this poll, made the Wisden and Cricinfo teams, peer ratings is through the roof.

But then his numbers against Australia, England, India and SA (small sample size), and all a little to a lot higher than one would want. Not to add his much higher than average amount of tail end wickets.

Is the early career struggles (shared by Sobers and others btw) and post peak diabetes explain all of that away?

Wrong person to address this to. I don't really rate him. I'm just happy to give him his due on aspects of his game I do rate.

 

[sayon basak]

Btw can spinners be considered good old ball bowlers?

 

[subshakerz]

Btw can spinners be considered good old ball bowlers?

No

 

[sledger]

Broad