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Who is the best old ball bowler of all-time?

Best Old Ball Bowler

  • Total voters
    33
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Coronis said:
I mean if any pacer would know how to bowl with both the new and old balls, it’d be Hadlee.
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I'm sure he would bowl well with the old ball but the question is how much would his effectiveness be affected if he doesn't have the bright red cherry.

I also don't believe in having an attack of bowlers of similar types.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
subshakerz said:
I'm sure he would bowl well with the old ball but the question is how much would his effectiveness be affected if he doesn't have the bright red cherry.

I also don't believe in having an attack of bowlers of similar types.
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Which Hadlee wasn’t compared to McGrath. You’re pigeonholing (ironic huh?) him as a McGrath/Curtly type fsr.
 
kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
sayon basak said:
Don't see any problem with rating Imran as the best old ball bowler ever, nor do I see any problem in having an opinion conflicting with CW's general view.
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Let's frame the discussion. I was ignoring him, and he laughed at my post and as usual responded with "the hate is strong". There's no way Imran isn't the best candidate.

1. He just made an entire argument as to why Kallis wasn't 2nd team because with Hammond there you don't need the extra bat. The exact same thing applied to Imran, with Hadlee there, the batting need is even further minimized, and Ambrose and Steyn are both better bowlers.

2. One of his two arguments for Imran is that's he's clearly and easily the best told ball bowler. And while you say that there's nothing with wrong with having any opinion, don't pretend that it's inarguable, and I'm the evil empire and spiteful because I don't acknowledge it. We're in an entire there for that exact same discussion and literally the only vote for Imran is his. He's delusional as ****.

His second argument is his batting. First off, I'm not a bat deep guy, I think picking the most impactful players on your team based on secondary criteria is fundamentally unsound, period, but here we go... As per his request were now looking at Imran's career from '74 to '88, fine. His average for that period is a good 32 with a rpi of 27. Hadlee, an average of 27 and rpi of 23. Hadlee is tiers above as a bowler a boundary an innings behind as a batsman. Hadlee also had tougher batting conditions for the most part and had less down hill skiing.

And this last argument basically covers both of the above. The discussion around bat deep, and something Coronis said yesterday is that, the gap between the top guys is so small that it really doesn't matter, go secondary. But 1, that's not how it's done, you still want the best primary guys, he then basically reversed his position 5 mins later with Hammond over Kallis. And 2, that's not Imran. Unless you're playing every game in 1980's Pakistan with his umpires and he's allowed to "prepare" the ball, he's not in the class of the guys above him. We know the averages, he wasn't ATG away anywhere. He had good performances in the Caribbean, but an average of 25, despite the comparatively weaker lineup he faced in '88 isn't elite ATG comparable to what Ambrose did in Australia. But it's the s/r's as well, 58 in England, 63 in Australia to go along with the 27 average and 61 in India. And that's using Subz's cutoffs.
We can also look at peer ratings, he wasn't rated as a bowler in the same tier as Hadlee and Marshall, at best he was 4th in his era behind those two, Lillee and was on par with Holding, he just played more / longer.
Unlike the guys above him, he neither has a place in the GOAT argument or was ever no. 2 in the world for any extended period of time. He was rated as an all rounder, again the batting, way more than he was as a bowler.

So again, unless you're playing all of your matches in Pakistan, what's the basis for selection?
Think I mentioned this yesterday, what makes Sobers and Hadlee special and separates them from the rest, is that even if they didn't possess their secondary skills they're still very much in the discussion for any team. That applies way less for guys like Imran and Kallis. So then you have to figure out how much are those skills worth, as Subz was arguing re Kallis. And with Imran's and Hadlee's rpi's being negligible, where's the advantage.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2 said:
The discussion around bat deep, and something Coronis said yesterday is that, the gap between the top guys is so small that it really doesn't matter, go secondary. But 1, that's not how it's done, you still want the best primary guys, he then basically reversed his position 5 mins later with Hammond over Kallis. And 2, that's not Imran.
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Um ok sure
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
kyear2 said:
Let's frame the discussion. I was ignoring him, and he laughed at my post and as usual responded with "the hate is strong". There's no way Imran isn't the best candidate.
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OMG I laughed at your post? How will you recover?
kyear2 said:
1. He just made an entire argument as to why Kallis wasn't 2nd team because with Hammond there you don't need the extra bat. The exact same thing applied to Imran, with Hadlee there, the batting need is even further minimized, and Ambrose and Steyn are both better bowlers.
Click to expand...
Yes the bowling gap between Imran and Hadlee is closer to me and batting is farther. Why can't you accept that?

kyear2 said:
2. One of his two arguments for Imran is that's he's clearly and easily the best told ball bowler. And while you say that there's nothing with wrong with having any opinion, don't pretend that it's inarguable, and I'm the evil empire and spiteful because I don't acknowledge it. We're in an entire there for that exact same discussion and literally the only vote for Imran is his. He's delusional as ****.
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When did I say clear and easy? Maybe I forgot but I don't think I said that and you tend to make stuff up. I used to rate Wasim ahead.

kyear2 said:
His second argument is his batting. First off, I'm not a bat deep guy, I think picking the most impactful players on your team based on secondary criteria is fundamentally unsound, period, but here we go... As per his request were now looking at Imran's career from '74 to '88, fine. His average for that period is a good 32 with a rpi of 27. Hadlee, an average of 27 and rpi of 23. Hadlee is tiers above as a bowler a boundary an innings behind as a batsman. Hadlee also had tougher batting conditions for the most part and had less down hill skiing.
Click to expand...
Yeah I asked if you will use his batting in that phase but not his bowling. Then you shut up.

kyear2 said:
And this last argument basically covers both of the above. The discussion around bat deep, and something Coronis said yesterday is that, the gap between the top guys is so small that it really doesn't matter, go secondary. But 1, that's not how it's done, you still want the best primary guys, he then basically reversed his position 5 mins later with Hammond over Kallis. And 2, that's not Imran. Unless you're playing every game in 1980's Pakistan with his umpires and he's allowed to "prepare" the ball, he's not in the class of the guys above him. We know the averages, he wasn't ATG away anywhere. He had good performances in the Caribbean, but an average of 25, despite the comparatively weaker lineup he faced in '88 isn't elite ATG comparable to what Ambrose did in Australia. But it's the s/r's as well, 58 in England, 63 in Australia to go along with the 27 average and 61 in India. And that's using Subz's cutoffs.
We can also look at peer ratings, he wasn't rated as a bowler in the same tier as Hadlee and Marshall, at best he was 4th in his era behind those two, Lillee and was on par with Holding, he just played more / longer.
Unlike the guys above him, he neither has a place in the GOAT argument or was ever no. 2 in the world for any extended period of time. He was rated as an all rounder, again the batting, way more than he was as a bowler.

So again, unless you're playing all of your matches in Pakistan, what's the basis for selection?
Think I mentioned this yesterday, what makes Sobers and Hadlee special and separates them from the rest, is that even if they didn't possess their secondary skills they're still very much in the discussion for any team. That applies way less for guys like Imran and Kallis. So then you have to figure out how much are those skills worth, as Subz was arguing re Kallis. And with Imran's and Hadlee's rpi's being negligible, where's the advantage.
Click to expand...
Typical complaints and minimizing of Imran's achievements. Utterly desperate.

I challenged you to show me how series by series he underperformed. You didn't reply.
 
Last edited:
akilana

akilana

State Captain
kyear2 said:
Let's frame the discussion. I was ignoring him, and he laughed at my post and as usual responded with "the hate is strong". There's no way Imran isn't the best candidate.

1. He just made an entire argument as to why Kallis wasn't 2nd team because with Hammond there you don't need the extra bat. The exact same thing applied to Imran, with Hadlee there, the batting need is even further minimized, and Ambrose and Steyn are both better bowlers.

2. One of his two arguments for Imran is that's he's clearly and easily the best told ball bowler. And while you say that there's nothing with wrong with having any opinion, don't pretend that it's inarguable, and I'm the evil empire and spiteful because I don't acknowledge it. We're in an entire there for that exact same discussion and literally the only vote for Imran is his. He's delusional as ****.

His second argument is his batting. First off, I'm not a bat deep guy, I think picking the most impactful players on your team based on secondary criteria is fundamentally unsound, period, but here we go... As per his request were now looking at Imran's career from '74 to '88, fine. His average for that period is a good 32 with a rpi of 27. Hadlee, an average of 27 and rpi of 23. Hadlee is tiers above as a bowler a boundary an innings behind as a batsman. Hadlee also had tougher batting conditions for the most part and had less down hill skiing.

And this last argument basically covers both of the above. The discussion around bat deep, and something Coronis said yesterday is that, the gap between the top guys is so small that it really doesn't matter, go secondary. But 1, that's not how it's done, you still want the best primary guys, he then basically reversed his position 5 mins later with Hammond over Kallis. And 2, that's not Imran. Unless you're playing every game in 1980's Pakistan with his umpires and he's allowed to "prepare" the ball, he's not in the class of the guys above him. We know the averages, he wasn't ATG away anywhere. He had good performances in the Caribbean, but an average of 25, despite the comparatively weaker lineup he faced in '88 isn't elite ATG comparable to what Ambrose did in Australia. But it's the s/r's as well, 58 in England, 63 in Australia to go along with the 27 average and 61 in India. And that's using Subz's cutoffs.
We can also look at peer ratings, he wasn't rated as a bowler in the same tier as Hadlee and Marshall, at best he was 4th in his era behind those two, Lillee and was on par with Holding, he just played more / longer.
Unlike the guys above him, he neither has a place in the GOAT argument or was ever no. 2 in the world for any extended period of time. He was rated as an all rounder, again the batting, way more than he was as a bowler.

So again, unless you're playing all of your matches in Pakistan, what's the basis for selection?
Think I mentioned this yesterday, what makes Sobers and Hadlee special and separates them from the rest, is that even if they didn't possess their secondary skills they're still very much in the discussion for any team. That applies way less for guys like Imran and Kallis. So then you have to figure out how much are those skills worth, as Subz was arguing re Kallis. And with Imran's and Hadlee's rpi's being negligible, where's the advantage.
Click to expand...
Just ignore him and move on. Haven’t you learned how he operates?
 
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