who is englands worst spinner

[djsj]

Agreed

 

[Richard]

"So basically I think England's worst spinner who has played international cricket is Dawson and Batty tied - they're both as poor as each other."

Worse than Salisbury?? Consistently woeful even after a number of chances during various phases of his career.

Did I ever mention "worst figures"?
Salisbury took 2 wickets in his last 6 Tests - both the last to fall in the innings - and bowled very, very disappointingly.
However, it is not possible to call him as poor as Dawson and Batty. The simple fact that he is a wristspinner and spins it far more than either of the above counts largely in his favour. He might have the worst international record, but that doesn't mean he's either the worst bowler or has bowled the worst.

 

[Richard]

IMO, England should choose one out of Rikki Clarke, Paul Collingwood and Ashley Giles depending on pitch, form etc

Does anyone have any decent left-arm seamers who are also 'all-rounders'? (whatever the definition of one is) I'm not too strong on most counties.

Very, very simple IMO:
Giles plays if the pitch looks like it will assist fingerspin. If it doesn't, he most certainly does not.
Clarke and Collingwood are incomparable to Giles IMO, too - Giles is a bowler, the above are batsmen. Both are barely good enough with the ball for this to be considered in their selection file.
There's no need for left-armers either - no point playing a left-armer if there are right-armers available who are better.
Sidebottom was a classic case - picked because he was a left-armer and was exposed has hopelessly substandard. He wouldn't even have made my best Yorkshire XI at the time of his selection.

 

[Richard]

Some ICC players are phenominal in the game without being so in real life (or even if they are, they haven't been selected).

Kevin Dean, Jason Brown, Justin Bates, Michael Powell (Glamorgan) are just few of the names that come to mind.

Sorry to go this off topic, but I was just wondering what happened to Alex Tudor...couldn't England use a player like him?

Never heard of Bates - Brown, Powell and Dean are all good, though. Brown is almost as good as Giles on a turning wicket; Powell is a good county player (not international material - ATM at any rate) and Dean is a very, very good bowler in the right conditions. Though his accuracy has always left a little to be desired.
As for Tudor, was terrible last season and hence wasn't considered.

 

[Richard]

First of is there any left arm seamers that are good enough for England.

Only one who springs to mind is Ryan Sidebottom (what a funny surname - then again he may think my surname Walsh is pretty funny).

I always rated Hutchison as the better bowler of our two left-armers.
Sadly his injury problems ruined him.
Jason Lewry is on top form easily the most deadly bowler in England - the degree of swing he gets can be alarming. Sadly, his accuracy has never been as good as I think it could be. Hence, Kirtley has always had the better record.

 

[marc71178]

However, it is not possible to call him as poor as Dawson and Batty.

Why not?!!!!! He has a massive advantage over them and has still performed considerably worse than them.

The only basis on not calling him as poor as them is because he's actually a hell of a lot worse!

 

[Richard]

No, he hasn't performed worse than them - his figures have simply been worse.
Dawson and Batty haven't taken a single Test-wicket between them with a wicket-taking delivery (and Dawson's bowled in 6 Tests, Batty 3). Neither has Salisbury.
Hence, you've got to judge them on what they can and can't do. Bowling with your wrists is harder than bowling with your fingers - hence, Salisbury in my opinion does the harder task to an equal standard.

 

[raju]

Did I ever mention "worst figures"?
Salisbury took 2 wickets in his last 6 Tests - both the last to fall in the innings - and bowled very, very disappointingly.
However, it is not possible to call him as poor as Dawson and Batty. The simple fact that he is a wristspinner and spins it far more than either of the above counts largely in his favour. He might have the worst international record, but that doesn't mean he's either the worst bowler or has bowled the worst.

Where did I mention his figures in my post?
He has been the worst spinner I have ever seen play for England if judged on bowling performances regardless of figures. Sure he spins it more but what use was that when he was bowling so many half-trackers and full tosses.
Not knocking his county performances but for some reason he always bowled complete dross when playing for England.

 

[raju]

No, he hasn't performed worse than them - his figures have simply been worse.
Dawson and Batty haven't taken a single Test-wicket between them with a wicket-taking delivery (and Dawson's bowled in 6 Tests, Batty 3). Neither has Salisbury.
Hence, you've got to judge them on what they can and can't do. Bowling with your wrists is harder than bowling with your fingers - hence, Salisbury in my opinion does the harder task to an equal standard.

Q. When is a wicket taking delivery not a wicket taking delivery?
A. When Richard says it isn't.

I never cease to be amazed by the utter bollocks you come out with.

Regards.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Did I ever mention "worst figures"?
Salisbury took 2 wickets in his last 6 Tests - both the last to fall in the innings - and bowled very, very disappointingly.
However, it is not possible to call him as poor as Dawson and Batty. The simple fact that he is a wristspinner and spins it far more than either of the above counts largely in his favour. He might have the worst international record, but that doesn't mean he's either the worst bowler or has bowled the worst.

I agree. Not sure why he failed.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Q. When is a wicket taking delivery not a wicket taking delivery?
A. When Richard says it isn't.

I agree with Richard. A wicket taking delivery that isn't a wicket taking delivery (:P ) is when it is not a good ball, just the batsmen played a crap shot.

 

[Neil Pickup]

With so much relevance to cricket...

Out is Out for all I care.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Out is Out for all I care.

It is for all I care, too, but I can see where he is coming from.

 

[Richard]

Yes, and it's a shame you and others who think like you can't see the non-difference between a bad or average delivery which has an acceptible shot played to it and one which has a shot played that resulted in a wicket.
Out is out, but we should dissect what was concerned to the ability of the player whose ability we are trying to assess. For all I care an average delivery is an average delivery; what happens next has nothing to do with the ability of the bowler.

 

[Richard]

Q. When is a wicket taking delivery not a wicket taking delivery?
A. When Richard says it isn't.

I never cease to be amazed by the utter bollocks you come out with.

I never cease to be amazed that you can't even construct an argument without resorting to this sort of crap.
When is bollocks bollocks? When you say it is, apparently.
You can make your own mind up about what a wicket-taking delivery is. If you wish to decide that there must be something good about a delivery because it had a wicket to it's name in the scorebook, that's also fine.
Don't expect Mother Cricket to look favourably on you, that's all I can say.

 

[Richard]

Where did I mention his figures in my post?
He has been the worst spinner I have ever seen play for England if judged on bowling performances regardless of figures. Sure he spins it more but what use was that when he was bowling so many half-trackers and full tosses.
Not knocking his county performances but for some reason he always bowled complete dross when playing for England.

He has been the worst spinner you have ever seen play for England in your estimation.
In mine, Batty and Dawson bowled just as many half-trackers and Full-Tosses as Salisbury. And they spun it less. So in my estimation there is no disputing the winner\loser.

 

[PY]

Less of the b*l*o*ks please guys.

I'm sure we can all find a better word.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Tripe? Rubbish? Reprocessed Spam?

 

[Richard]

I didn't start it!

 

[PY]

Reprocessed Spam?

Talking of re-processed spam, they served that in my halls today as part of 'A Chinese Special'.

Richard, you've made me feel like a teacher