Who is better- Lara or Tendulkar?

[social]

Disagree....raw speed and bounce is in favour of India along with spin......accurate line and length stuff and medium-fast stuff is in favour of OZ.

Against pace

Sehwag - untested

Other opener- given that India hasnt had 2 decent openers I think it's fair to say poor.

Dravid - OK but definitely not his strongest point

Tendulkar - excellent against everything

Laxman - alternates between excellent and abysmal against all types of bowling

Ganguly - abysmal

In summary, there is no way that this Indian batting lineup is any where near as good against pace as Aus. That's not an insult, it's simply a reflection of the wickets they were brought up on.

 

[Slifer]

I am going by player to player.
Yes, Aussies handled the pace and bounce quiete well previously, primarily because of excellent players of pace such as Slater, Waugh brothers, etc. Their replacements in the current team ( hayden, Clarke, Katich etc) arnt anywhere as good against really fast or bouncy stuff.

Player-vs-player wise, i think Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman and Sehwag are more accomplished against raw pace than Hayden,Langer,Ponting,Gilly. Notice that pacey or bouncy bowlers like Ambrose, Akhtar, Donald etc. didnt cause the abovementioned group(when/if they faced them) as much trouble as they caused Hayden,Ponting,Katich,etc. while bowlers with accuracy/movement/etc. like Pollock/Vaas/Akram has troubled the Indians considerably more.
This has been for the past few decades, going back to the early 70s really.
Gavaskar, Mohinder Amarnath, Sandeep Patil, Chauhan,Manjrekar etc. were pretty competent against raw pace/bounce while they wernt so good relatively against accurate/movers of the ball. Apart from a few batsmen here and there, such as Vengsarkar, Azhar,Ganguly etc, India has handled raw pace and bounce stuff ( like Akhtar-Ambrose-Holding etc.) better than accurate bowlers or movers of the ball ( Akram/Hadlee/Botham/McGrath/Pollock etc).

Thing is both line ups would have only faced the fast/bouncy stuff from one end. But i dont care if u are west indian, australian, or indian no batting line up is trully comfortable against a TRUE pace attack where at least 3 of ur seamers are in excess of 85 mph. The WI of the late 70's early 80's are prime examples with both holding and marshall in excess of 85 mph easily, both were accurate and incidentally both had marked success against india even in india

 

[Top_Cat]

Sehwag - untested

I dunno about that. I think he's got plenty of ticker for the fight but his technique against well-directed short ones is a bit suspect. On the leg-side, I mean, because short-stuff on the off-side is likely to lose the ball! Some days, however, you could be throwing the ball down at 200km/h and it wouldn't matter.

Dravid - OK but definitely not his strongest point

I'm struggling to pick a weak point in Dravid's play!

Tendulkar - excellent against everything

Not for some time. He's still excellent against spin but I think he hasn't hooked/pulled well for a couple of years now and he's always had some issues with the ball swinging away. Not that the tactic worked too often because it was only by virtue of the fact that he played just about every other type of bowling so well, his outside-off stump play when the ball is swinging suffers only a little by comparison.

 

[Sanz]

Akhtar
Versus Aus: 10 291.5 1105 31 5/21 8/72 35.64 3.78 56.4 3 0
Versus Ind: 4 125.5 415 15 4/47 8/118 27.66 3.29 50.3 0 0
Note: Average versus Aus is 10 runs per wicket above his career average, while India have still handled him pretty well. Lack of a five wicket hall against India indicates how he's been more consistent versus them, as opposed to against Aus where he's had some very very good days, and some just as ordinary ones (probably the next day!) as well. Also interesting to notice the economy rate difference. ..

That's an incorrect analysis. Akhtar has played India 4 times and I have watched him very closely and Only time he had great success against Indian top order was in the 1st inning of 1999 test match at Edens when he ripped Indian Top Order by getting Dravid, Lax and Sachin out cheaply.

Akhtar has had more success against top Aussie batsmen than top Indian batsmen. Out of his 31 wickets against Australia 21 times he has dismissed a top aussie batsman (Gilchrist, Hayden, S Waugh, Ponting - 3 each, Langer, Lehman, M Waugh, Slater - 2 each, Clark 1) that's almost 70 % times a top order aussie batsman was dismissed by Akhtar. One more thing , Except for two instances(Langer 144,Gilchrist 81) every time Akhtar has dismissed the aussie batsman under 50.

Against India, Akhtar's 8 wickets came in the first test, in the remaining 3 tests he has taken 7 wickets. 9 of the wickets are top order batsmen (60 %), and twice Indian batsmen have made 50+ score (Sehwag 90, Lax 71).

Although it is worth notable that Akhtar's strike rate against Aus is 56 compared to 50 against India.

 

[SJS]

Hooper started his career in mid 80s and not in 90s.

I never said anything about when he started his career. I just talked of him versus West Indies batsman of the last 15 years (which is different from last 20 years)

And What is the use of being so gifted when you end up worse than a player who was half talented than him ?

I never said about how useful he was. I choose my words carefully. I said gifted and not the best or any such thing. The reason for that choice of words is because of what you state. It was implicit in what I said.

You want to discuss something or is this just criticism for the sake of criticism. If it is the latter as your aggressive tone to my earlier post seems to suggest (apologies if i am mistaken) please forgive me for not responding in future. It is not to offend you but to make better use of my time.

Regards.

 

[C_C]

Thing is both line ups would have only faced the fast/bouncy stuff from one end. But i dont care if u are west indian, australian, or indian no batting line up is trully comfortable against a TRUE pace attack where at least 3 of ur seamers are in excess of 85 mph. The WI of the late 70's early 80's are prime examples with both holding and marshall in excess of 85 mph easily, both were accurate and incidentally both had marked success against india even in india

Agreed...especially if you have 4 good/great 90-100 mph bowlers like WI did....you can only survive against that and i dont care if it is 7 Bradmans facing them..
But i think Player v Player, the indian top order over the last 4-5 years has been more sucssesful against raw pace/bounce than the aussie top order.
And i disagree that Sehwag is untested against true pace........he faced Akhtar, arguably the best 'real speedster' in the world over the past few years and absolutely annihilated him.

Vic: yeah,some of those bowlers have had more success against India but then again, India back then had some notoriously poor players of pace- the tail was far worse, Azhar was mediocre against pace/bounce and mongia was just a lost cause against pace.

Anil: I dont consider Ponting to be the best against true pace in the aussie team( it is Martyn) let alone the whole world, really.

 

[aussie]

That's an incorrect analysis. Akhtar has played India 4 times and I have watched him very closely and Only time he had great success against Indian top order was in the 1st inning of 1999 test match at Edens when he ripped Indian Top Order by getting Dravid, Lax and Sachin out cheaply.

Akhtar has had more success against top Aussie batsmen than top Indian batsmen. Out of his 31 wickets against Australia 21 times he has dismissed a top aussie batsman (Gilchrist, Hayden, S Waugh, Ponting - 3 each, Langer, Lehman, M Waugh, Slater - 2 each, Clark 1) that's almost 70 % times a top order aussie batsman was dismissed by Akhtar. One more thing , Except for two instances(Langer 144,Gilchrist 81) every time Akhtar has dismissed the aussie batsman under 50.

Against India, Akhtar's 8 wickets came in the first test, in the remaining 3 tests he has taken 7 wickets. 9 of the wickets are top order batsmen (60 %), and twice Indian batsmen have made 50+ score (Sehwag 90, Lax 71).

Although it is worth notable that Akhtar's strike rate against Aus is 56 compared to 50 against India.

all this is true but Akhtar has never bowled to the Indian on a fast boucy track in any of those 4 test....

 

[aussie]

Agreed...especially if you have 4 good/great 90-100 mph bowlers like WI did....you can only survive against that and i dont care if it is 7 Bradmans facing them..
But i think Player v Player, the indian top order over the last 4-5 years has been more sucssesful against raw pace/bounce than the aussie top order.
And i disagree that Sehwag is untested against true pace........he faced Akhtar, arguably the best 'real speedster' in the world over the past few years and absolutely annihilated him.

.Anil: I dont consider Ponting to be the best against true pace in the aussie team( it is Martyn) let alone the whole world, really.

Has i posted before Sehwag nor any of the Indian batsmen have never faced Shoaid on a fast bouncy track which is significant, Sehwag has never been tested againts true pace in conditions like that and i cant remember too many times in Sehwag's career where he has dominated fast bowlers on good bouncy tracks.

No Ponting is better againts Martyn againts pace for sure he has handled it better than him for sure.

Plus you say the Indians have had more success againts RAW pace in testing conditions than the aussies since 2000 i totally disagree.Lets look at some series of the odd game in the last 5 years where India have come up to fast bowling on fast bouncy tracks:

- IND vs AUS 99 the Indian batsmen weren't anything special with the exception of Tendulkar.

- IND vs WI 2002 the standard of bowling of the WI wasn't great nor that pacy but they had that much vaunted Indian batting line-up in so much trouble on the quickish pitches that were on view during that series

These are just 2 series in the last 5 years which shows the fact has u had said before that pitches in the last 5 years have become tailored made for batsmen.

- Aus VS PAK in 99 & 2004 they handled Akhtar pretty well, much better than i'm sure the Indian batsmen could play him in very testing conditions.

So to conclude both IND & AUS have come up againts this pace/bounce in the lst 5 years & AUS have done clearly better

 

[C_C]

I disagree that Ponting is better against fast and/or bouncy stuff than Martyn.....Martyn handles it better IMO.
But thats just an opinion...
as per Sehwag not doing well against fast-bouncy bowlers, well he hasnt got the chance yet against many quality pacers in greentops......but he did decimate Lee in Australia gave Gillespie a hard time too.
He also did pretty well against Hayward-Ntini as well in RSA.
Not to mention, a blistering hundred in Trent Bridge against Flintoff-Harmison.

So yes, he hasnt got many chances to bat against quality pacers on greentops but the few chances he's got, he's grabbed em with both hands

 

[aussie]

I dunno about that. I think he's got plenty of ticker for the fight but his technique against well-directed short ones is a bit suspect. On the leg-side, I mean, because short-stuff on the off-side is likely to lose the ball! Some days, however, you could be throwing the ball down at 200km/h and it wouldn't matter.



I'm struggling to pick a weak point in Dravid's play!.

1. The fact is mate he is untested againts raw/pace in testing conditions

2. Agreed but if you look at his career the 2 times he really came up againts pace on bouncy tracks in 99 in AUS & 97 in WI he didn't too well. He hasn't come up againts these conditions in test at all since 2000.

 

[C_C]

- IND vs AUS 99 the Indian batsmen weren't anything special with the exception of Tendulkar.

And that has largely to do with McGrath...who isnt really a pacy bowler.

- IND vs WI 2002 the standard of bowling of the WI wasn't great nor that pacy but they had that much vaunted Indian batting line-up in so much trouble on the quickish pitches that were on view during that series

Quick-ish pitches ?
WI pitches havnt been quick since 99-2000 or so. Besides, if the attack isnt a fast and/or bouncy type, what has this gotto do with India's performance against fast/bouncy bowlers ??

- Aus VS PAK in 99 & 2004 they handled Akhtar pretty well, much better than i'm sure the Indian batsmen could play him in very testing conditions.

Err, again, forget the conjencture about what 'might've been' if IND played Akhtar in aussie soil- that is never gonna happen in test cricket, really. Though India did make mincemeat outta him in the world cup, on a fast-ish pitch.

And yes, the pitches have gotten flatter in the last 3-4 years but i am talking about the performances of these batsmen over their entire career....Hayden was a duck outta water against Ambrose-Walsh, Akhtar and did pretty pathetically in 2 outta 3 series he played against Donald....Ponting has done decently, Langer has done decently(did get owned by Ambrose-Walsh), Gilly has done okay, Pup has a big problem against raw pace and katich is largely unproven.......
I am not saying that Aussies are crap against extreme pace and/or bounce.....neither are they great ( nobody is really great against it) but they are a wee bit behind when it comes to dealing with bowlers that bowl at a high pace/bounce than the established Indian batsmen......but they do handle the accurate stuff and seam movement a whole lot better

 

[C_C]

2. Agreed but if you look at his career the 2 times he really came up againts pace on bouncy tracks in 99 in AUS & 97 in WI he didn't too well. He hasn't come up againts these conditions in test at all since 2000.

Eh?
I assume you are talking about Dravid here.
Yes, he hasnt done particularly well against OZ in OZ when McGrath-Warne were present but that is irrelevant ot this discussion- McWarne arnt 'bounce em and fire it fast' kinda bowlers.

And Dravid didnt do too well in WI in 97 ? mate, he scored 370 runs @ 72.00 with 4 fifties in 7 innings......thats pretty damn good.
And he's done pretty well against Donald in RSA too back in the 90s.......

 

[aussie]

And that has largely to do with McGrath...who isnt really a pacy bowler.

Quick-ish pitches ?
WI pitches havnt been quick since 99-2000 or so.

Err, again, forget the conjencture about what 'might've been' if IND played Akhtar in aussie soil- that is never gonna happen in test cricket, really. Though India did make mincemeat outta him in the world cup, on a fast-ish pitch

katich is largely unproven.......

but they are a wee bit behind when it comes to dealing with bowlers that bowl at a high pace/bounce than the established Indian batsmen......but they do handle the accurate stuff and seam movement a whole lot better

1. Still young Brett Lee troubled them.

2. Yes i know the pitches in the caribbean have lost most of its pace since 99 onwards but they still had life during that 97 series.

3. Katich is largely unproven yes but i defiantely see him doing well againts it....

4. Aren't we talking about Test cricket so that performace againts Akhtar is a bit irrelevant plus it was only Tendulkar who really smashed him around.

5. How do the Indian batsman handle bowlers of high pace better than the aussies?? dont agree, and has i said before the aussies ahndle FAST BOWLING whetther it be pacy or accurate better than the Indians & sub-continental batsmen in general....

 

[C_C]

1. Still young Brett Lee troubled them.

Not really that much.....Lee got him just twice in 6 innings in 99 and in 2003 he got obliterated, really.
So Lee vs Dravid in Australia has to go to Dravid.

2. Yes i know the pitches in the caribbean have lost most of its pace since 99 onwards but they still had life during that 97 series.

Yeah.
And Dravid did excellently in that series.

3. Katich is largely unproven yes but i defiantely see him doing well againts it....

Well he is even more unproven than Sehwag, so i discount him, really.

4. Aren't we talking about Test cricket so that performace againts Akhtar is a bit irrelevant plus it was only Tendulkar who really smashed him around.

Well if you wanna restrict it to test cricket only, then Akhtar vs India on a greentop isnt gonna happen....so its irrelevant- so far Akhtar has been smashed by India pretty bad in all except 1 match.

5. How do the Indian batsman handle bowlers of high pace better than the aussies?? dont agree, and has i said before the aussies ahndle FAST BOWLING whetther it be pacy or accurate better than the Indians & sub-continental batsmen in general....

Because Tendulkar did better than Ponting against bowlers like Ambrose-Walsh-Donald-Akram-Younis-Akhtar etc., Dravid did better against them than Martyn, Langer, Gilly, Hayden, etc., Sehwag ( so far) has done it better than Hayden and Ganguly is no worse than Hayden when it comes to fast pace/bounce stuff.

Yer just going by impressions and prevalent opinions.....this Indian batting lineup is a bit more proficient against pace and bounce and considerably more proficient against spin, while this Australian team is considerably more proficient againt medium-pace and seamers.
Since the latter kind of bowlers( medium-pacers and seamers) are far more prevalent than genuine speedsters/spinners, it is therefore logical that Australia has been more consistent around the world than India when it comes to batting.

 

[aussie]

Eh?
I assume you are talking about Dravid here.
Yes, he hasnt done particularly well against OZ in OZ when McGrath-Warne were present but that is irrelevant ot this discussion- McWarne arnt 'bounce em and fire it fast' kinda bowlers.

And Dravid didnt do too well in WI in 97 ? mate, he scored 370 runs @ 72.00 with 4 fifties in 7 innings......thats pretty damn good.
And he's done pretty well against Donald in RSA too back in the 90s.......

i did my research on SA so fair enough, but you must agree pace isn't Dravid strongest point. So its just laxman, Ganguly & Sehwag in the group now....

 

[SJS]

All the top Indian batsmen viz Tendulkar Dravid and Laxman handle raw pace pretty well. Ganguly is an exception and that too to short pitched rising deliveries. Handling the moving ball, particularly moving away, is a different matter though Even here, Dravid and Tendulkar are very good. Both have excellent backfoot defence.

Laxman with his tendency to play away from the body has some problems.

The lack of movement for medium pacers in India makes the batsmen develop a more aggressive style with free flowing strokes. Since not many Indian batsmen spend time on the county circuit, they dont develop the technique to play the moving deliveries as well. Hence the problems of people like Yuvraj when they first make a foray into the English county season. However, if they were to play longer in England they would surely adjust and become more proficient against this type of bowling.

Its exctly the same for those from England being less comfortable facing spin in India.

But the absolute top level of batsmen in which Tendulkar, Dravid, Lara, Inzemaam etc are included are comfortable in all conditions.

This is not to say all are exactly equal but they are all good enough to come good.

 

[C_C]

i did my research on SA so fair enough, but you must agree pace isn't Dravid strongest point. So its just laxman, Ganguly & Sehwag in the group now....

i dont see why i should agree to that, given that Dravid hasnt fallen victim to raw pace bowlers much and his record against raw pace/bounce attacks is pretty damn good.
He didnt do too well against McGrath in 99 but then again, McGrath isnt this category of a bowler and neither is Warne.

 

[aussie]

Not really that much.....Lee got him just twice in 6 innings in 99 and in 2003 he got obliterated, really.
So Lee vs Dravid in Australia has to go to Dravid.


Well he is even more unproven than Sehwag, so i discount him, really.


Well if you wanna restrict it to test cricket only, then Akhtar vs India on a greentop isnt gonna happen....so its irrelevant- so far Akhtar has been smashed by India pretty bad in all except 1 match.



Because Tendulkar did better than Ponting against bowlers like Ambrose-Walsh-Donald-Akram-Younis-Akhtar etc., Dravid did better against them than Martyn, Langer, Gilly, Hayden, etc., Sehwag ( so far) has done it better than Hayden and Ganguly is no worse than Hayden when it comes to fast pace/bounce stuff.

Yer just going by impressions and prevalent opinions.....this Indian batting lineup is a bit more proficient against pace and bounce and considerably more proficient against spin, while this Australian team is considerably more proficient againt medium-pace and seamers.
Since the latter kind of bowlers( medium-pacers and seamers) are far more prevalent than genuine speedsters/spinners, it is therefore logical that Australia has been more consistent around the world than India when it comes to batting.

1. I was refering to the Indian team in general which he did trouble a lot in his 1st series.

2. True but looking at little we have seen of them againts this type of bowling i'm pretty sure Katich will become a better player of pace in testing conditions than Sehwag.

3. Well he might not bowl to them on a green top but he might get to bowl to them on a bouncy track (probably in PAK) but when Akhtar destroyed India in Eden Gardens he was bowling much better than he bowled in 2004. But he has never bowled to the Indians on a fast bouncy track in tests....

4. Tendulkar did better againts Donald/Pollock but he only faced Ambi/Cuddy together only in 97 & didn't do anythhing that special but Ponting faced them in 1 or 2 tests in 96/97 & 99 and had some good scores againts them.

When Martyn & Langer faced Walsh/Bishop & especially Ambrose in 92/93 they were at their peak while in 97 they weren't has good.

Gilchrist faced Wasim/Waqar/Akhtar in his debut series & did pretty well averaging 88 & doing better than dravid who played againts them in 99 in more test conditions in AUS, whiel Gilchrist has never faced Ambrose/Walsh in tests.

So no the Aussies still have the edge againts the quick stufff & the the medim-pace accurate stuff....

 

[aussie]

All the top Indian batsmen viz Tendulkar Dravid and Laxman handle raw pace pretty well.

no not Laxman....

 

[SJS]

no not Laxman....

If you read the entire post you would have got an answer my friend. I quote :-


Laxman with his tendency to play away from the body has some problems.