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Who is better- Lara or Tendulkar?

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
aussie said:
interesting cant disagree with you here SJS...
People tend to equate speed of scoring, propensity to playing big shots, speed of the bat, etc with technique.

I do not think Tendulkar has a poor technique and Dravid has a very good technique too but to say that Lara's technique is inferior to Tendulkars is to show a complete lack of cricketing knowledge.

By the way, I talked to Jack Hobbs and Walter Hammond last night and they agreed with me that Lara has the greatest technique since they didnt remember who :p
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Lara's bat speed is a very misleading factor. One neds to watch his play in slow motion to see how technically correct he is.
 

C_C

International Captain
I do not think Tendulkar has a poor technique and Dravid has a very good technique too but to say that Lara's technique is inferior to Tendulkars is to show a complete lack of cricketing knowledge.
That is because you have no understanding of what technique is. Technique is all about balance during the point of contact and presenting the full face of the bat while striking the delivery. Those are the words of Sunny Gavaskar himself. Lara did not have this throughout the 90s, as his bat was comming down from third slip area instead of directly behind. Nowadays, he jumps across the crease before going back or front and that is why he is still vulnerable to short-pitched deliveries or the yorker.Which is why he has repeatedly fallen to Nel's yorkers and struggled mightily with bouncers, nearly getting hit several times by Lee and nearly dropping dead after a corker from Akhtar.

By the way, I talked to Jack Hobbs and Walter Hammond last night and they agreed with me that Lara has the greatest technique since they didnt remember who
Are you calling me a liar ?
You can either hide behind your diplomacy or address me directly if you got the cojones for it.
You can cast your pretensions aside, old man.
You profess not to talk to me, yet you directly address my points.
You go around calling people liars but you lack the fortitude to say it openly or defend your viewpoint.
You have very little to contribute apart from exposing your ignorance and snide remarks.
Either put up or get lost, really.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
I disagree totally on this one.
I see no reason to say Lara faced a significantly superior attack last time in ENG compared to Tendy's last visit to ENG, considering that they faced literally the same attack.
Yes, the attack has improved its 'stats' since Tendy has faced them but have done very little of note against a STRONG batting lineup like IND or AUS and has only plumped the plate by feeding on poor/mediocre batting lineups.
Lara faced the English attack in his second tour that was better than Any tendy faced but even if you take that out, Tendy is still superior.



Tendulkar STILL did a LOT better in Pakistan against quality attacks.
Tendulkar in his debut series as a 16 year old averaged 36 against Imran-Wasim-Waqar-Qadir while Lara averaged 24.50 and 21.50 respectively.
Still SIGNIFICANTLY worse.



This argument is irrelevant.
Lara has had more chances against Australia and England but you dont see me trumpeting that to try and big-up Tendulkar.
Lara bolloxed up in RSA while Tendy has done significantly better. That is fact. Just like how Lara played England way more when England was a mediocre attack.



He never needed any great technique ?
Is that why Lara took Sober's advice and rectified his glaring technical flaw ?
If he didnt need any great technique, please do tell, why did Lara barely average 40 from 1996 to 2001 ?



If you dont believe me, please go rent DVDs of Tendulkar batting.
firsty not only did the Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff & Jones improve statistically in form 2002 but in every aspect of their game TOTALLY. IND & AUS have the only two STRONG batting lineups in World cricket today, with India on paper looking stronger but consistently the aussies have proved to be the superior one. The WI batting line-up was poor but i would consider the Kiwis who had good players like Richardson, Fleming. Astle, McMillan, Styris, Cairns in 2004 has mediocre has poor/mediocre at all neither was SA's of Smith, Gibbs, Rudolph, Dippenaar, De Villiers. Maybe the haven't bowled to IND has yet but did you watch the lord's test??? because you would have seen that they surely troubled the australian batsmen...

And how would Tendulkar become superior if we take out the 2000 series, he has NEVER faced a good english attack in home conditons.

24.50 and 21.50 wow a whole 3 points that doesn't prove much at all

Overall Lara has played ENG in 6 series vs Tendulakrs 5 not much of a difference at all, plus this arguement is relevant because if someone see that stats that when Lara & Tendulakr both played in SA againts good/great bowling attacks they would see that Tendulakr averages 42.40 againts Lara's 31 and would automatically assume that ``Tendulkar has averaged 40 in SA when Donald/Pollock where playing & Lara only 31 so Tendulkar is has done well againts a great SA bowling attack in their own backyard but Lara hasn't``, which would be wrong.

i got that one out wrong let me go again, the thing with Lara is that he has never been a perfectionist of Technique but in cricket ``Batting Maestros has Lara never needed any great Technique``, Lara is all about great hand-eye co-ordination, utter brilliance, powerful, stamina, a huge appetite for runs & an the temperament for the big occasion.

I'll have to get DVD's or video of his batting in the early 90 to agree with that (which is practically nowhere)
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Are you calling me a liar ?
You can either hide behind your diplomacy or address me directly if you got the cojones for it.
You can cast your pretensions aside, old man.
You profess not to talk to me, yet you directly address my points.
You go around calling people liars but you lack the fortitude to say it openly or defend your viewpoint.
You have very little to contribute apart from exposing your ignorance and snide remarks.
Either put up or get lost, really.
I think he was joikng here CC :D , but i dunno :mellow:
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
SJS said:
Lara's bat speed is a very misleading factor. One neds to watch his play in slow motion to see how technically correct he is.
interesting observation SJS, now i'm confused but look at it mate Tendulkar has close to perfect technique i have heard Richie Benaud say that so much its boring :sleep: , Lara technique is a bit flashy with the way he moves all over the crease but has i have said before:

``The thing with Lara is that he has never been a perfectionist of Technique but in cricket ``Batting Maestros has Lara never needed any great Technique``, Lara is all about great hand-eye co-ordination, utter brilliance, powerful, stamina, a huge appetite for runs & an the temperament for the big occassion.``. I just love this quote :D
 

C_C

International Captain
with India on paper looking stronger but consistently the aussies have proved to be the superior one
I agree with that.
But i fail to see how or what it has to do with my statement 'India and australia are the TWO strong batting lineups'.

but i would consider the Kiwis who had good players like Richardson, Fleming. Astle, McMillan, Styris, Cairns in 2004 has mediocre has poor/mediocre at all neither was SA's of Smith, Gibbs, Rudolph, Dippenaar, De Villiers. Maybe the haven't bowled to IND has yet but did you watch the lord's test??? because you would have seen that they surely troubled the australian batsmen...
Umm...The aussie batsmen are more vulnerable to speed than the Indian batsmen are (while Indian batsmen are more vulnerable against a nagging length-line attack) - this is evident, not only in the way they play but by how they handled the fast and bouncy bowling attacks of Walsh-Ambrose-Donald-Akram-Younis.

And yes, NZ is a mediocre batting lineup. A good one would be Australia in the mid 70s.
I am sorry but none of the kiwi players really cut the mustard when it comes to 'great or worldclass batsmen' and RSA is pretty much Kallis-Smith-Gibbs since Cullinan and Kirstien retired. DeVillers is still a newbie and Rudolph, Dippennaar etc. are pretty mediocre, not to mention that Pollock and Boucher are a pale shadow of themselves with the bat.

24.50 and 21.50 wow a whole 3 points that doesn't prove much at all
No no no. Both those are Lara's stats from two tours of Pakistan against good/great bowling attacks while Tendulkar's is 36.
I could use your argument and say that Lara got more chances to face Pakistan when they were good and redeem himself but that would be inconsistent in my part and which is why you claiming Tendy got more chances against RSA is inconsistent.

And how would Tendulkar become superior if we take out the 2000 series, he has NEVER faced a good english attack in home conditons.
You cant hold it against him that Gough didnt play the series when Tendy was there...how the hell does Tendy control that ? I am saying that Tendy is more superior in England- both overall and against comparative attacks.

Overall Lara has played ENG in 6 series vs Tendulakrs 5 not much of a difference at all,
Except that all but 1 of Lara's series vs England were 5 test series and all but 1 of Tendulkar's series vs England were 3 test series.
Lara has played 30 tests against England while Tendulkar has played 16.
That is almost half.
yes, not much difference at all
8-) 8-)

Tendulkar is has done well againts a great SA bowling attack in their own backyard but Lara hasn't``, which would be wrong.
It isnt wrong, because that is the case with Tendulkar while it isnt the case with Lara.
Lara hasnt done well in RSA against a good/great attack while Tendulkar has.
Those are the numbers.
Simple as that!
 

C_C

International Captain
aussie said:
I think he was joikng here CC :D , but i dunno :mellow:

I would like him to say that, since everytime he puts his foot in his mouth, he resorts to some smart-alec comment that implies that the other party is lying.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
I agree with that.
But i fail to see how or what it has to do with my statement 'India and australia are the TWO strong batting lineups'.



Umm...The aussie batsmen are more vulnerable to speed than the Indian batsmen are (while Indian batsmen are more vulnerable against a nagging length-line attack) - this is evident, not only in the way they play but by how they handled the fast and bouncy bowling attacks of Walsh-Ambrose-Donald-Akram-Younis.

And yes, NZ is a mediocre batting lineup. A good one would be Australia in the mid 70s.
I am sorry but none of the kiwi players really cut the mustard when it comes to 'great or worldclass batsmen' and RSA is pretty much Kallis-Smith-Gibbs since Cullinan and Kirstien retired. DeVillers is still a newbie and Rudolph, Dippennaar etc. are pretty mediocre, not to mention that Pollock and Boucher are a pale shadow of themselves with the bat.



No no no. Both those are Lara's stats from two tours of Pakistan against good/great bowling attacks while Tendulkar's is 36.
I could use your argument and say that Lara got more chances to face Pakistan when they were good and redeem himself but that would be inconsistent in my part and which is why you claiming Tendy got more chances against RSA is inconsistent.



You cant hold it against him that Gough didnt play the series when Tendy was there...how the hell does Tendy control that ? I am saying that Tendy is more superior in England- both overall and against comparative attacks.



Except that all but 1 of Lara's series vs England were 5 test series and all but 1 of Tendulkar's series vs England were 3 test series.
Lara has played 30 tests against England while Tendulkar has played 16.
That is almost half.
yes, not much difference at all
8-) 8-)



It isnt wrong, because that is the case with Tendulkar while it isnt the case with Lara.
Lara hasnt done well in RSA against a good/great attack while Tendulkar has.
Those are the numbers.
Simple as that!
You said that the the curent english bowlers ``have done very little of note against a STRONG batting lineup like IND or AUS and has only plumped the plate by feeding on poor/mediocre batting lineups.`` I'm saying that in world cricket today only India and Australia have really STORNG batting line-ups with India on paper looking stronger but consistently the aussies have proved to be the superior one.

No how can the aussies batsmen be more vulnerable to speed that the Indians, it would more be the other way around since the aussies would have grown up facing quick bowling on bouncy/quick wickets, while India & Sub-continent batsmen on the whole who grow up on slow/turners when they come up againts fast bowling on fast/bouncy tracks againts quick bowlers always find themselves in trouble.

In all honestly in test history i dont think NZ have ever been blessed with a good/great batting line-up its always been 1or 2 top-class batsmen backed up by some dependable players. In the 70s it was Congdon & turner, 80s it was basically Martin Crowe & now their Fleming & Astle. But to say that the Kiwi batting line-up that was here last year was mediocre/poor is harsh mate. So only India & Australia have an all-round STRONG batting line-ups in world cricket today.

ok well thats Tendulakr averages 36 in his only series againts a good/great PAK attack while Lara averaged 24.50 and 21.50 in his 2 series againts a good/great PAK attack & failed. These stats dont prove much at all....

Even if Tendulkar had faced gough/Caddick in 96 neither were at their peak then. Gough was at his peak from the 98 ashes series to the 2001 ashes series in my view, while Caddy was at his peak from 2000 to the 2001 ashes series. So my point still stands Tendulkar has NEVER faced a good english attack in home conditions....

Even if we could turn those 3 test series in to 5 tests series he still faced poor english attacks and would have smashed them even more. So my point with SA is relevant.

Has i said stats dont tell the truth surely in this case Tendulkar had MORE chances in SA againts those good bowlers Lara didn't, so if a person where to view those stats he would he would automatically assume that which would be wrong...
 

C_C

International Captain
No how can the aussies batsmen be more vulnerable to speed that the Indians, it would more be the other way around since the aussies would have grown up facing quick bowling on bouncy/quick wickets, while India & Sub-continent batsmen on the whole who grow up on slow/turners when they come up againts fast bowling on fast/bouncy tracks againts quick bowlers always find themselves in trouble.
How can it be ? That i dunno.
I am saying how it is, rather than why it should/shouldnt be.
Of the Aussie batsmen currently, Martyn and Langer are proficient against the short pitched ones from real fast bowlers while Ponting tend to run hot and cold. Gilly is okay, Hayden is pretty mediocre and Pup/Katich etc. are ordinary.
That is reflected by the fact that they have strugged more against pacers who have pace and/or bounce like Ambrose,Akhtar, Walsh, Waqar, Akram and Donald.

Indians have been more vulnerable to 'nag away with the right L&L' types like Pollock, Vaas etc while OZ tends to handle the 'L&L naggers' pretty damn well.

I am not saying that one is a lot superior than the other but relatively speaking, this current IND batting lineup is better against pace and bounce while the OZ one is better against accurate stuff.

In all honestly in test history i dont think NZ have ever been blessed with a good/great batting line-up its always been 1or 2 top-class batsmen backed up by some dependable players. In the 70s it was Congdon & turner, 80s it was basically Martin Crowe & now their Fleming & Astle. But to say that the Kiwi batting line-up that was here last year was mediocre/poor is harsh mate. So only India & Australia have an all-round STRONG batting line-ups in world cricket today.
How is it harsh when you are basically saying that NZ have never been blessed with a good/great batting lineup ?
You take away the good/great adjective and what are you left with in the next tier ? Answer : Mediocre.
You are contradicting yourself by saying 'NZ have never been blessed with good/great batting lineup' and then saying 'to say that they are mediocre/poor is harsh'.
Fleming and Astle are decent batsmen, nothing hoo-haa really.
Wouldnt call them worldclass/alltime greats.

ok well thats Tendulakr averages 36 in his only series againts a good/great PAK attack while Lara averaged 24.50 and 21.50 in his 2 series againts a good/great PAK attack & failed. These stats dont prove much at all....
They prove the same deal that any other stats does- that Lara struggled considerably more than Tendy when faced with a good/great pakistani attack in their backyard.
Its really that simple!

Even if Tendulkar had faced gough/Caddick in 96 neither were at their peak then. Gough was at his peak from the 98 ashes series to the 2001 ashes series in my view, while Caddy was at his peak from 2000 to the 2001 ashes series. So my point still stands Tendulkar has NEVER faced a good english attack in home conditions....
Incorrect.
Gough was at his peak from 96/97 till 2001/2 or so while Caddick never really had a peak...he was hot and cold all his career.

Even if we could turn those 3 test series in to 5 tests series he still faced poor english attacks and would have smashed them even more. So my point with SA is relevant.
No it isnt relevant or consistent, simply because we arnt dealing with 'even ifs' but with facts.
Fact is, Tendy has had more of a chance to redeem himself in RSA vs Donald-Pollock while Lara hasnt but Lara has had more chances to plump up on average English bowling while Tendulkar has had much less chances. I can say the same thing about Lara in Pakistan -Lara has had the chance to redeem himself but still failed to do so while Tendy has never had the chance.
These sort of things cancel each other out, so to bring up one is inconsistent and irrelevant.

Has i said stats dont tell the truth surely in this case Tendulkar had MORE chances in SA againts those good bowlers Lara didn't, so if a person where to view those stats he would he would automatically assume that which would be wrong...
No he wouldnt be, due to the abovementioned logic.
Tendulkar has been more successful in RSA than Lara- that is a fact. How many chance is irrelevant.
Lara has been less successful in PAK than Tendy- that is also a fact. How many chance is irrelevant.
You cannot bring the RSA point to favour Lara while ignoring the PAK point that favours Tendulkar and in essence, cancel each other out, leaving only one thing: how have they performed in respective countries against good/great attacks.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
How can it be ? That i dunno.
I am saying how it is, rather than why it should/shouldnt be.
Of the Aussie batsmen currently, Martyn and Langer are proficient against the short pitched ones from real fast bowlers while Ponting tend to run hot and cold. Gilly is okay, Hayden is pretty mediocre and Pup/Katich etc. are ordinary.
That is reflected by the fact that they have strugged more against pacers who have pace and/or bounce like Ambrose,Akhtar, Walsh, Waqar, Akram and Donald.

Indians have been more vulnerable to 'nag away with the right L&L' types like Pollock, Vaas etc while OZ tends to handle the 'L&L naggers' pretty damn well.

I am not saying that one is a lot superior than the other but relatively speaking, this current IND batting lineup is better against pace and bounce while the OZ one is better against accurate stuff.



How is it harsh when you are basically saying that NZ have never been blessed with a good/great batting lineup ?
You take away the good/great adjective and what are you left with in the next tier ? Answer : Mediocre.
You are contradicting yourself by saying 'NZ have never been blessed with good/great batting lineup' and then saying 'to say that they are mediocre/poor is harsh'.
Fleming and Astle are decent batsmen, nothing hoo-haa really.
Wouldnt call them worldclass/alltime greats.



They prove the same deal that any other stats does- that Lara struggled considerably more than Tendy when faced with a good/great pakistani attack in their backyard.
Its really that simple!



Incorrect.
Gough was at his peak from 96/97 till 2001/2 or so while Caddick never really had a peak...he was hot and cold all his career.


No it isnt relevant or consistent, simply because we arnt dealing with 'even ifs' but with facts.
Fact is, Tendy has had more of a chance to redeem himself in RSA vs Donald-Pollock while Lara hasnt but Lara has had more chances to plump up on average English bowling while Tendulkar has had much less chances. I can say the same thing about Lara in Pakistan -Lara has had the chance to redeem himself but still failed to do so while Tendy has never had the chance.
These sort of things cancel each other out, so to bring up one is inconsistent and irrelevant.



No he wouldnt be, due to the abovementioned logic.
Tendulkar has been more successful in RSA than Lara- that is a fact. How many chance is irrelevant.
Lara has been less successful in PAK than Tendy- that is also a fact. How many chance is irrelevant.
You cannot bring the RSA point to favour Lara while ignoring the PAK point that favours Tendulkar and in essence, cancel each other out, leaving only one thing: how have they performed in respective countries against good/great attacks.
I Agree that langer/hayden/Ponting/Martyn & Gilly are good enough againts the quick bouncing stuff while Hayden & Pup (so far seem to be mediocre, but all Pup needs o do is iron out some of his little technical flaws and he would be fine in the future againts this type of bowling) Katich on the other hand is by no means poor againts this type of bowling no way, the only time in his short career that he has faced bowling of that sort was at lord's and he hadn't it excellenetly.

But i ahve seen the whole Indian major batsmen in Sehwag/Dravid/Tendulkar/Laxman & Ganguly face this type of bowling on bouncy tracks and with the exception of Tendulakar all have struggled to cope. So the current Aussie line-up has definately handled bowlers who are accurate & lenghts & pace & bounce better than the Indians.......

Well that was a mistake on my part i meant to say they have never been blessed with having a great batting line-up, but the line-up they had here last year was a good one, definately not mediocre or poor.

Fleming right now is NZ's only true WC class batsman, forget about the fact he failed againts AUS when Mcgrath & Warne are playing, so has Dravid but you wouldn't discount the fact that he is a WC batsman.

No way when i first started watchin cricket fduring the 97 ashes series whcih gough played. Even if i didn't know much about the game then he wasn't bowling like a bowler who was at the peak of his powers, plus that Ashes series was the 2nd series he had played since after an injury which had kept him out of the England side since that WI series in May 95. Thinking back now i would say he was at his peak form the home series againts SA in 98 to the 2001 ashes.

Caddick was a bit hot & cold for the most part of his career but i saw all of Caddy's test form the 97 ashes to the 2002 ashes & i know for sure that form the home series againts WI in 2000 to the 2001 ashes was were he was bowling at his absolute best.

So my point still stands Tendulkar has NEVER made runs againts a good english attack in home conditions, god willing he will surely get that chance once he comes here in 2007....

But to bring up the fact that Lara has gotten more of chance to destroy a weak english bowling attack OVERALL compared to Tendulkar would be irrelevant because we are talking about their records overseas. The scenario with Lara in SA & Tendulkar in Pak has a fair difference because when Lara failed in SA in 98 he was at his bests, when Tendulkar made runs in PAK in 88 he was unproven. So when Lara was a proven test he never got the chance to redeem himself in SA has Tendulkar did, while Tendulkar didn't get to redeem himself in PAK. All i can honestly conclude from this is that we will never know if Lara at his best could have redeemed himself againts Donald/Pollock in their own backyard & we'll never know if Tendulkar could have redeemed himself in PAK againts againts Wasm/Waqar & co in their own backyard.
 
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C_C

International Captain
I Agree that langer/hayden/Ponting/Martyn & Gilly are good enough againts the quick bouncing stuff while Hayden & Pup (so far seem to be mediocre, but all Pup needs o do is iron out some of his little technical flaws and he would be fine in the future againts this type of bowling) Katich on the other hand is by no means poor againts this type of bowling no way, the only time in his short career that he has faced bowling of that sort was at lord's and he hadn't it excellenetly.
Err actually no.
Sehwag,Dravid,Tendulkar and Laxman have handled the short and fast stuff pretty well, better than Ponting-Langer, with probably Gillchrist and Martyn being in the same level as those four. For you might wanna recall that it was the typical 'fast and/or bouncy' type bowlers such as Ambrose-Donald-Wasim-Waqar-Akhtar that gave the aussies relatively more trouble than the indians...... whilst bowlers like Vaas, Pollock etc., who are line-n-length stuff have bothered the indians more.

And Katich has done okay, nothing hoo-haa.
There is a saying in investigative research streams : the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but is concrete and not arbitary.
As such, Katich has to prove himself against high level fast-n-short stuff before i elavate him from 'okay' category.

Well that was a mistake on my part i meant to say they have never been blessed with having a great batting line-up, but the line-up they had here last year was a good one, definately not mediocre or poor.

Fleming right now is NZ's only true WC class batsman, forget about the fact he failed againts AUS when Mcgrath & Warne are playing, so has Dravid but you wouldn't discount the fact that he is a WC batsman.
If Fleming is the only 'world class batsman' ( personally, i dont think Fleming is worldclass...he is ordinary and not just because of his failures against Australia, but because he has done rather modestly against most excellent bowling attacks), how does that make a team of 6-7 batsmen 'good' ?
'Good' would be Kirstien-Cullinan-Cronje-Rhodes-Boucher-Pollock-Gibbs-McMillan.
Not Fleming-Astle-McMillan-nobody-nobody-nobody.

So my point still stands Tendulkar has NEVER made runs againts a good english attack in home conditions, god willing he will surely get that chance once he comes here in 2007....
Err... that is irrelevant, because neither has Lara.
You can bring this point up as a contrast only if Lara had done well against a good english attack and the fact is he hasn't.
So in short, against a good english attack, Tendulkar is unproven and Lara sucks.
Against a mediocre english attack, Tendulkar has outshined Lara.
Seems like Tendulkar is ahead to me by the simple matter of concrete facts and not speculation.

But to bring up the fact that Lara has gotten more of chance to destroy a weak english bowling attack OVERALL compared to Tendulkar would be irrelevant because we are talking about their records overseas.
We may be talking overseas. But we have to be consistent in each and every category along with each category being consistent with the other.
As such, this point is very much relevant.

The scenario with Lara in SA & Tendulkar in Pak has a fair difference because when Lara failed in SA in 98 he was at his bests, when Tendulkar made runs in PAK in 88 he was unproven. So when Lara was a proven test he never got the chance to redeem himself in SA has Tendulkar did, while Tendulkar didn't get to redeem himself in PAK.
So an unproven 16 year old kid does better than a proven bona-fide batsman( Lara's 2nd tour to PAK) ?
Sounds even more points to the Tendulkar column to me!

And yes, Lara never got a chance to redeem himself in RSA and Tendulkar never got a chance to improve in Pakistan when the two Ws were playing ( he still does a whole lot better than Lara though). Both cancel each other out, so this point is totally irrelevant.
What is relevant is the facts- Lara has done pretty poorly in RSA and Tendulkar has done better when RSA had a good/great bowling attack and he's done better than Lara in Pakistan under same criterias as well.
While Lara has consistently failed overseas against good attacks and pummelled poor attacks(with a few exceptions here and there), Tendulkar has consistently done well overseas against good attacks and pummelled poor attacks(with a few exceptions here and there).
Those are the facts
Therefore, factually, Tendulkar is better overseas.

All i can honestly conclude from this is that we will never know if Lara at his best could have redeemed himself againts Donald/Pollock in their own backyard & we'll never know if Tendulkar could have redeemed himself in PAK againts againts Wasm/Waqar & co in their own backyard.
An objective analysis has no place for conjencture or 'what ifs'
Going by the same line of thought, all i kknow is that we'll never know how bad Tendulkar would've pummelled McGrath-Warne-Pollock-Donald-Akram-Younis-Ambrose-Walsh etc. if he had the reflexes of a shaolin monk and the stamina of a marathon runner.
See ? conjencture leads nowhere.
We have to evaluate based on the facts presented.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
aussie said:
interesting observation SJS, now i'm confused but look at it mate Tendulkar has close to perfect technique i have heard Richie Benaud say that so much its boring :sleep: , Lara technique is a bit flashy with the way he moves all over the crease but has i have said before:

``The thing with Lara is that he has never been a perfectionist of Technique but in cricket ``Batting Maestros has Lara never needed any great Technique``, Lara is all about great hand-eye co-ordination, utter brilliance, powerful, stamina, a huge appetite for runs & an the temperament for the big occassion.``. I just love this quote :D
Hi mate,
Ravings and rantings apart :p

First and foremost, both Lara and Tendulkar have excellent batting techniques. Being such gifted stroke players, they will always try to do something more, something innovtive, something beyond mere mortals to do. This does not necessarily mean bad technique.

When we discuss basic techniques of players we must keep this in mind and flaws or weaknesses in technique , if any, can be only seen in the context of the overall normal game and not what they may try to do for achieving specific goals in specific situations.

Secondly, each batsman has some relative strengths which he will try to make best use of and at times this may appear to be un orthodox and the puritanical may again call it lack of technique. Wrong again. In this second case comes something like a great gift of a quick judgement of length like The Don had.

I once asked my coach what exactly is a good length delivery. I was fifteen and was really wanting him to point out the area on the crease where the bal has to pitch for it to be classified as of good length and he gave me an answer which I havent forgotten til today. I am not quoting his name here since no one will know who he was. But cricketers from North India revered him in the sixties and seventies. He was as good a coach as one has seen in India ever. His name was not as glamourous as Sunil Manohar Gavaskar but he could teach Sunny a thing or two about what was wrong with Sunny's batting. :p

Anyway, he said, there is no such thing as a good length ball. Everyball can be played off either backfot or of the frontfoot and for runs if you can judge the length early enough. There is a length, which is very short and can be sen earlier and allows the batsman the luxury of deciding very quickly to go off the backfoot and hit it and there is the ball which is very full or a full toss, which too can be seen to be such as to cause no confusion in the batsman's mind and he decides to go forward and also what he wants to do with it in good time.

Then there is the ball which is of a length that the batsman is not able to decide quickly enough what to do with. This is what we call the good length and it varies from batsman to batsman. And since there isnt enough time to hit it for runs, the bats,man prefers to play it defensively, off the backfoot or off the front foot depending upon the strengths of the batsman in question.

Then there are batsmen like Bradman, who could see this length much earlier than most cricketers and being a strong backfoot player, he would go back and across and pull them for boundaries !!

Most people who saw Bradman do this in Australia said he would never be sucessful in England because he had a "faulty technique". They proclaimed from roof tops that a tour of England would show Bradman for being the inept batsman that he was. We all know what he did in 1930 in England. Before those who have learnt about technique from reading what others have writen about it, start their raving and ranting, let me add that we are not talking here of how god or bad a batsman Bradman was on wet wickets which is a different subject from what is being discussed.

So. The point is that a batsman puling a ball others would have to defend is not necessarily displaying a faulty technique. He is showing a physical attribute/gift, a strength and a skill which others dont necessarily posess. Bradmans technique of pulling could not be faulted because he played the shot absolutely to perfection - to the extent perfection can be achieved by humans.

Now. Coming back to Lara and Tendulkar. I dont know exactly what Benaud and others have said about them and in what context. With all humility I would like to submit that my knowledge of the game, its technique and its finer points does not depend on the next article I read.

Having said that both of these great batsman have excellent techniues, I am of the opinion that defects have cropped into Tendulkar's game which have become persistent enough to be termed as 'weaknesses in techniue'. I can discuss a couple of them which are prominent and for both of which Lara appears far better. Let me add before that , that being one of the greatest batsmen in the history of the game, these defects havent been disastrous and these weaknesses stand out in what are otherwise impeccable techniques.

I have mentioned earlier about Lara's footwork. Let me first state that the really great players stand out from the rest for the strength of their backfoot play. Both Lara and Tendulkar play very well off both feet but Tendulkar, for the last couple of years(probably more) has started not moving well enough when playing off the backfoot.

He first started by not moving fully back, even though he was moving across enough. This meant that for the really short pitched delivery he was okay with the transfer of weight onto the right foot and playing the forcing shots off the backfoot. But his backfoot drives with the straight bat became less frequent and most of his backfoot shots on the offside became his powerful square cuts. To drive off the backfoot with a straightbat, you ned more room , unless, of course the bal is very short, in which case a square cut is preferred unless the ball is uncomfortably close to the body.

I do not know if you can look back in your minds eye and recall Tendulkar being bowled off the backfoot and then bending down from the knees to give the impression as if the ball kept to low. In many of these case, the ball actually hit the top of the stumps and Tendulkar gets the feeling as if the ball kept low because he hasnt moved back enough.

Now it has become worse. He is not even moving across enough. This makes itself manifest in many ways and if one has not noticed any of the folowing, I would say, one is better of picking up those cards with fours and sixes written on them and swing them acros merily while swigging a beer

a) Very often now, Tendulkar is found chasing a wide off side short pitched ball moving away. He has not moved enough to weither connect the ball or to see that he needs to leave it alone. huis is not just when he is going hel and leather after the bowlers but even in his more sedate moods.

b) Very often now, Tendulkar gets bowled off the inside edge when playing off the backfoot to a bal wide of the off stump. This problem exists with Dravid also. When a batsman does not move across and behiind the ball and wants to drive it of the backfoot (drive mind you not cut) and the ball is moving away, the bat tends to follow the movement of the ball. In otherwords, the bat is in the right place but the feet are not. However often in such a case, the bats angle does not remais perpendicular or 90 degrees with the ground. The toe of the bat moves further away while the top stays closer to the body being held by the hands. This often results in not being able to offer the full face of the bat and geting an inside edge.

Now look at Lara. There is no one in world cricket with a better idea of where his stumps are when playing off the backfoot than Lara. And this is because he moves so decisively back and across. Lara repeatedly leaves deliveries going over his stumps. These are not errors of judgement but the superb judgement of a man who has gone back enough to have sen the ball travel suficient distance and gain sufficient height for him to decide this is going over.

Also, Lara will repeatedly go back and across, outside the off stump to deliveries pitched wide of the stumps, BUT OVERPITCHED, and drive these balls off the half voley off the backfot to cover and extra cover. These are beautiful strokes played by very few batsmen with regularity. But you cant do it without moving back and across. This can be done profitably and without risk to deliveries bowled outside the off stump and moving further away and the risk is mionimal as long as you are right behind the line of the bal because you can see it coming right onto the bat.

This is a shot which when you play it correctly appears so easy to the batsman, far easier than driving a half voley of the front foot because you lose sight of the bal momentarily when driving off the frontfoot. BUT it is easy ONLY if you have great movement of the feet, right back and right across.

We can discuss more on technique but it will cost you money. :D

Excuse the many typos which must be in this very long post but I dont fel like going back and correcting please. :)
 

C_C

International Captain
Decent but incorrect analysis.
First, Tendulkar until recently was extremely good at going to the backfoot in one fluid and quick movement.
Time and time again we've seen Tendulkar unleash the perfect backfoot drive, standing on his toes and the bat as straight as it can get.
His recent problem is not that he isnt getting back enough, his recent problem is that he is emulating Lara's faulty play- he is taking a big stride with his leading foot to get across without much movement in the back foot, thus throwing his balance off in his initial movement.

And there is nobody better than lara at backfoot play ?
The same Lara who doesnt handle the short stuff or yorkers anywhere as well as a batsman of his callibre should be.
For one, he used to have a ****ed wrist instead of a supple wrist ( which he implimented after getting corrective coacing from Sobers).
For two, Lara was very hesitant on the backfoot for most of his career - 1996-2002 or so.
The reason he nicked the ball back to the slip cordon so much off that particular delivery is because, apart from his bat comming down from a wrong angle, he wasnt getting back enough and getting caught in the 'no man's land'.
He's rectified that now, but now he has resorted to a 'jumping jack' across the crease that leaves him extremely vulnerable to the yorker or the bouncer - simply because he is getting too far across and doesnt have the time to adjust.
That is why Nel has cleaned him up so many times with teh yorker, that is why he struggled really badly against lee in TT and that is why Akhtar nearly killed him with the bouncer!
 

Slifer

International Captain
Yes Nel cleaned him up only after Lara had scored massive hundreds pleez donot forget that. And In that series (2003) when he supposedly sturggled against lee he scored over 500 runs in 4 tests including 110 and 91 in that same test against Lee and co. If that is sturggling i would take it ne day.
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Disagree. Sidhu was one of the very few batsmen who averaged 40+ in Test cricket as an opener, despite being in and out of the team over a dozen times.
It is inherently difficult to compare test openers to middle order batsmen and Chanderpaul today may be better or equal to Sidhu but Chanderpaul back then was not. And Hooper never was.
hooper was one of the biggest wasted talents in the 90s...i consider him to be basically a better player than sidhu....whatever the stats show....and sidhu while having a better average has only played half the number of tests hooper has, stats are not all that valid as a comparison in such situations....
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Anil said:
hooper was one of the biggest wasted talents in the 90s...i consider him to be basically a better player than sidhu....whatever the stats show....and sidhu while having a better average has only played half the number of tests hooper has, stats are not all that valid as a comparison in such situations....
Other than Brian Lara, Carl Hooper was the most giifted West Indian batsmen since the beginning of the 90's.
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
SJS said:
Other than Brian Lara, Carl Hooper was the most giifted West Indian batsmen since the beginning of the 90's.
and unlike most west indians was a superb player of spin as well...
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
lara is not a flat-track bully, also he isn't as technically deficient as is being suggested...one doesn't score 10800+ runs in 117 tests by being either....one quadruple century, one triple century, 5 double centuries, 10 150+ scores and 13 other 100+ scores....!!! i mean come on....seriously... :)
 

C_C

International Captain
Anil said:
lara is not a flat-track bully, also he isn't as technically deficient as is being suggested...one doesn't score 10800+ runs in 117 tests by being either....one quadruple century, one triple century, 5 double centuries, 10 150+ scores and 13 other 100+ scores....!!! i mean come on....seriously... :)

He is technically deficient. Has always been and several high profile cricketers have pointed that out.
Thing is, technique isnt the end-all be-all of scoring runs. Key is balance during moment of contact. Technique helps that. Look at Sehwag. Not a good technician.
Yes, Lara is a great batsman but to say that he is not technically deficient would be false.
 

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