Who are the most underated and overated players

[Jnr.]

linda, perhaps you don't realise but scores of 8* and 230 out are the same as 230* and 8 out. So in any case, Lara's 400, magnificent as it was, only counted as one not out.yes, i am aware of Ponting's 250, 240 and 200 odd, but compare that to 400, the WR. (in any case my dear, 4 double centuries are more than 3, and 24 scores over 50 are more than 20.

How many innings did each of them play in those 30 matches?

 

[SJS]

This is an interesting debate. Like most people, I too consider Lara a better player than Ponting.

But why ??

Good question. Hmmmm

 

[SJS]

This is an interesting debate. Like most people, I too consider Lara a better player than Ponting.

But why ??

Good question. Hmmmm

So I sit down to prove that Lara is better than Ponting

First I think this last 30 tests comparison is a bit fishy , why 30 ?

So I reduce to 25 it is Ponting still ahead by 7 points(runs per innings).
I reduce to 20, Ponting lead goes up to 8.9 !!
I go down to 15, Ponting leads by 5.5 .
I realise I must go down to last ten matches and give Lara maximum benefit of his unbeaten quadruple century ...
****...Ponting still leads at 76.4 to 75.05 :

I realise I have to try something else.

Aha ! Now I understand. This last 30 test sequence represents an uncommon, fantastic, continuous streak in Pontings career. I need to go behind this streak. I must add to the 30 tests. I will fix these Ponting supporters.

I go to 35 Ponting leads by 5.4 points.
I go to 40 Ponting leads by 4.8
I go to 45 Ponting leads by 7.2
50 ... he leads by 5.8
55...he leads by 7.3

I am going to fix them. I keep trying
60...65...70...75...but Ponting stays ahead at 6.3, 5.7, 4.3 , 4.4
By now I am frothing

I decide to give it one more try. I try to adjust the filter to last 80 tests. It refuses to give me that option. I realise that I am defeated. Ponting has not yet played 80 tests

Dont worry folks. I am not giving up. We will prove Lara is better if it is the last thing we do

 

[tooextracool]

This is an interesting debate. Like most people, I too consider Lara a better player than Ponting.

But why ??

Good question. Hmmmm

i'll give you 2 reasons....

1) lara has been playing with very little support from the rest of the batsman. he carries the entire side on his own,his inning of 153 against australia is a prime example of that, something that ponting has never done.
2) lara does not average 3.40 and 21 on his 2 tours to india.

 

[marc71178]

He seemed particularly fond of England against whom he averaged 78.7 in 14 tests and scored 8 of his 10 hundreds and all five fifties against them.

IIRC England didn't always send full teams on these tours, but haven't got time to look it up now (exams!) and I'm not actually trying to say he wouldn't have got the runs anyway.

 

[SJS]

Aha ! I know why Ponting seems to have the better of Lara. He does not have to play the Aussie bowlers and gets to Wallop the West Indies bowlers.

Lara has to play the great Aussie attack and never gets to face the miserable Dillon and company . Thats it !! Now I am going to show the world .

So I decide to compare them against all the sides of the world except Australia and West Indies. So I start with the next best attacks (in my humble opinion).

I start with S Africa. Whats this, Ponting averages more.

I know, this is a fluke, I go to Pakistan with Shoaib, Wasim , Waqar et al...oh ****... Ponting again in the lead.

Aha NZLand will do it for me...NO ? Ponting again scores more against the Kiwis.

India...no such luck again.

Maybe Heath Streak and Blignaut have exposed this superman's chinks...no again ?? Ponting leads

I had almost given up when I realised that it was against England that Lara dear had his unbeaten quadruple century. Sure enough, Lara averages above ponting against the Poms. I am in luck he averages more against the Sri Lankans too.

Thats all ??

No, no, he averages more than Ponting against Bangladesh. Wow. Thats not bad.

England, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh versus South Africa, Pakistan, New Zealand, India and Zimbabwe. Wee you decide, I am not feeling too well

 

[SJS]

i'll give you 2 reasons....

1) lara has been playing with very little support from the rest of the batsman. he carries the entire side on his own,his inning of 153 against australia is a prime example of that, something that ponting has never done.
2) lara does not average 3.40 and 21 on his 2 tours to india.

I think Marc one has to look beyond statistics. I also feel Lara is better but I doubt if statistics can be used to prove that. It just so happens that the ones I have quoted support Ponting. It does show Ponting is a consistently high performer but one can not really compare two players like this purely on stats unless they are dramatically different.

Thats my only point.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Case of Statistics not telling the story - Lara pretty much carries the entire side at times whilst Ponting doesn't.

 

[SJS]

i'll give you 2 reasons....

1) lara has been playing with very little support from the rest of the batsman. he carries the entire side on his own,his inning of 153 against australia is a prime example of that, something that ponting has never done.
2) lara does not average 3.40 and 21 on his 2 tours to india.

Some time playing for a weaker side is beneficial. Champion cricketers in weak sides have invariably performed better. Even Tendulkar's performance dropped when the team relied less on him. So I am not so sure if that is a valid arguement.

Regarding average in India, well, Lara's average of 33 in India is also not a great one. So one has to really compare them on their game.

I would say, first and foremost, Lara is clearly the better player of spin. His footwaok against spinners is better.

He also seems to have more strokes than Ponting who gets a much larger proportion of his runs from two shots, the cover drive (or drives in that region) and the square cut.

Perhaps one could add that Lara has the better temprament of the two and a sounder defense particularly off the back foot.

Ponting I think suffers due to his being in a team that has had some terrific batsmen from Marc Waugh till the current line up. He is not built up the way Lara has been and is devoid of the glamour and hype that surrounds Lara. I think this is another reason why we rate Ponting lower than he deserves to be. I am surprised at the number of people who put Hayden in all time Aussie (and some even world) elevens as compared to Ponting who has fewer backers. I think Ponting suffers due to this sharing of the limelight within the team and his lack of personal charisma.

 

[tooextracool]

Some time playing for a weaker side is beneficial. Champion cricketers in weak sides have invariably performed better. Even Tendulkar's performance dropped when the team relied less on him. So I am not so sure if that is a valid arguement.

not really....tendulkar's performances have gone down because he is past his prime. which innings would you rate higher...laras 153 against australia where he single handedly brought WI back into that series against the best bowling attack in the world or any of pontings innings?

Regarding average in India, well, Lara's average of 33 in India is also not a great one. So one has to really compare them on their game.

which is still significantly better than 3.40 and 21. i dont care how good a player you are but 3.40 over 3 tests is just disgraceful.

lara seems to have more strokes than Ponting who gets a much larger proportion of his runs from two shots, the cover drive (or drives in that region) and the square cut.

now i dont want it to seem like im supporting ponting here but ponting is a pretty good player of the pull shot.

Ponting I think suffers due to his being in a team that has had some terrific batsmen from Marc Waugh till the current line up. He is not built up the way Lara has been and is devoid of the glamour and hype that surrounds Lara. I think this is another reason why we rate Ponting lower than he deserves to be. I am surprised at the number of people who put Hayden in all time Aussie (and some even world) elevens as compared to Ponting who has fewer backers. I think Ponting suffers due to this sharing of the limelight within the team and his lack of personal charisma.

i dont really agree with you that hayden has more charisma than ponting, and i havent seen too many people put hayden ahead of ponting in their world XIs. i said this earlier, until i see ponting coming to india and scoring i refuse to treat him as anything more than a 'good' player.

 

[SJS]

not really....tendulkar's performances have gone down because he is past his prime. which innings would you rate higher...laras 153 against australia where he single handedly brought WI back into that series against the best bowling attack in the world or any of pontings innings?



which is still significantly better than 3.40 and 21. i dont care how good a player you are but 3.40 over 3 tests is just disgraceful.



now i dont want it to seem like im supporting ponting here but ponting is a pretty good player of the pull shot.



i dont really agree with you that hayden has more charisma than ponting, and i havent seen too many people put hayden ahead of ponting in their world XIs. i said this earlier, until i see ponting coming to india and scoring i refuse to treat him as anything more than a 'good' player.

First and foremost, I dont think Ponting is better than Lara and have said so.

I dont think Pontings record in India is great but I dont think that can be flaunted to 'prove' that Lara is a better player, thats all I was saying.

Yes Ponting has a great pull shot. I missed it. Thats his second best shot alongwith the coverdrive. But he has very few good strokes from straight field to square leg with a straight bat which is why I feel Lara is a more complete player.

Hayden may not have personal charisma but a world record does have and Haydens stock with record crazy public went up very high with that innings of 380.

I mentioned about Tendulkar to highlight how abatsman's contributions stand out when he is the sole/main 'bread winner' and how they seem so much less when he is surrounded by others who perform consistently at high levels.

I dont know whether Ponting will perform well in India but to conclude that he CANT because he didnt earlier is being bullheaded. There are many examples to the contrary, Dravid's record in Australia before the last Indian series only being one of the recent ones.

 

[tooextracool]

I dont know whether Ponting will perform well in India but to conclude that he CANT because he didnt earlier is being bullheaded. There are many examples to the contrary, Dravid's record in Australia before the last Indian series only being one of the recent ones.

i never did say that he cant though.....its just that i would really like to see how much he's improved against spin over the last 3 years. if he failed here i would never really be convinced that someone who failed on all his 3 tours of india(who at home boasts a rather potent attack) is worthy of the term "great"

 

[Revelation]

Hayden may not have personal charisma but a world record does have and Haydens stock with record crazy public went up very high with that innings of 380.

i don't know about that. 380 was great but it came against Zimbabwe. I don't know too many people who'd go crazy over that.

 

[SJS]

i never did say that he cant though.....its just that i would really like to see how much he's improved against spin over the last 3 years. if he failed here i would never really be convinced that someone who failed on all his 3 tours of india(who at home boasts a rather potent attack) is worthy of the term "great"

I dont recall using the term 'great' to describe Ponting .

 

[SJS]

i don't know about that. 380 was great but it came against Zimbabwe. I don't know too many people who'd go crazy over that.

I wouldnt for one.

 

[luckyeddie]

i don't know about that. 380 was great but it came against Zimbabwe. I don't know too many people who'd go crazy over that.

At the end of the day, it's an exercise in concentration, and should be applauded as such.

When Hanif was in the record books at the top of the first-class high score table for so many years with his 499, do you think anyone cared about the standard of the opposition? Similarly, when Lara went to 501, that was against Durham, at the time the weakest side in the English game (yes, even worse than Derbyshire for some time).

 

[tooextracool]

I dont recall using the term 'great' to describe Ponting .

well considering you were comparing him to lara... i assumed that you were calling him 'great'

 

[Neil Pickup]

Congrats, TEC, you're managing to argue with someone who agrees with you.

Black cats and all...

 

[Craig]

Well done on resurrecting exactly what we were saying 12 months ago and presenting it as your own opinion.

Hey I gave my reasoning why I don't believe he is over-rated, how about quoting it true context?

In fact (I have edited this bit in) Liam said exactly what I have been saying since i have been here.

 

[Craig]

George Headley is one of the most under-rated players ever.

Which is what I have been saying the whole time since I have been there!