Which teams would be adversely effected by Cond/Pitches in SA ?

[CricketGuru]

Originally posted by Bazzaroodoo
Gillespie won't get half as many ODI wickets as Akram because when Akram was Gillespie's age he had played about 4 times as many games as Gillespie, and he's already carried on until about 35 so Gillespie would have to play like 30 games a year for 10 years to catch Wasim.

Not everybody gets that chance and u need to be an extraordinary player like Wasim to play that many games and last so long in International Cricket, i think u should know that

 

[marc71178]

On careers there's no contest, but also currently there's no contest - no-one in their right mind would select Wasim ahead of Gillespie now.

 

[Anil]

Originally posted by marc71178
On careers there's no contest, but also currently there's no contest - no-one in their right mind would select Wasim ahead of Gillespie now.

Career stats and current(last 10 matches) stats for both in tests and onedayers:

Wasim Akram

Tests:

overall 104 matches 414 wickets 7/119 best bowling-innings 11/110 best bowling-match 23.62 average 25 times 5 wickets-innings 5 times 10 wickets-match
last 10 matches 27 wickets 6/61 best bowling-innings 11/110 best bowling-match 28.44 average 3 times 5 wickets-innings 1 times 10 wickets-match

One dayers:

unfiltered 343 matches 479 wickets 5/15 best bowling 23.82 average 3.89 rpo 16 times 4 wickets 5 times 5 wickets
last 10 matches 17 wickets 3/30 best bowling 23.70 average 4.80 rpo 0 times 4 wickets 0 times 5 wickets

Jason Gillespie

Tests:

overall 35 matches 129 wickets 7/37 best bowling-innings 9/88 best bowling-match 26.24 average 6 times 5 wickets-innings 0 times 10 wickets-match
last 10 matches 27 wickets 3/45 best bowling-innings 5/167 best bowling-match 36.96 average 0 times 5 wickets-innings 0 times 10 wickets-match

One dayers:

unfiltered 44 matches 70 wickets 5/22 best bowling 24.80 average 4.32 rpo 2 times 4 wickets 2 times 5 wickets
last 10 matches 20 wickets 5/22 best bowling 18.95 average 4.16 rpo 0 times 4 wickets 2 times 5 wickets

As far as career stats go, Jason has a looooong way to go in both tests and one dayers. As far as the last 10 matches are concerned, Akram has slightly better figures in tests and Gillespie has slightly better figures in one dayers. Your "no-one in their right mind" theory doesn't seem to pan out when you look at the figures.

 

[Top_Cat]

As far as the last 10 matches are concerned, Akram has slightly better figures in tests and Gillespie has slightly better figures in one dayers. Your "no-one in their right mind" theory doesn't seem to pan out when you look at the figures.

Oh come on, use your rational rather than emotional head, will ya? Gillespie is a bowler most definately on the way up whilst Akram's best days are behind him. Most people would probably pick Gillespie on that basis in itself.

Stats say little about how well Gillespie is bowling against top opposition right now. Stats don't really say anywhere near everything about a player anyway. It's pretty obvious who is bowling better right now. All you have to do is watch both of them bowl.

Also, you neglected to mention the opposition in Wasim's last 10 Tests:

WI, SL, England and Bangladesh.

Gillespie's last 10 Tests:

England, NZ, Pakistan and South Africa.

Kind of puts those stats in perspective, yes?

[Edited on 15/11/2002 by Top_Cat]

 

[CricketGuru]

Well suppose if u are playing a very tough match and there is one over left and u have to defend ten runs in that over who would u trust with the ball in that case, i would never trust Gillespie because he cant handle the pressure and control the ball in the last overs as well as Wasim can. If you look back u will know what i mean.

 

[Top_Cat]

Well suppose if u are playing a very tough match and there is one over left and u have to defend ten runs in that over who would u trust with the ball in that case, i would never trust Gillespie because he cant handle the pressure and control the ball in the last overs as well as Wasim can. If you look back u will know what i mean.

1) Absolute rubbish. I've seen Jason bowl in plenty of pressure matches and he's come through more often than not. In fact, considering their relative consistency and accuracy, I would have picked Gillespie even when Wasim was in his prime in a situation like that. ow, if I wanted to get a quick wicket or three (considering Wasim's propensity for hat-tricks), that would be a different story.

2) We're not talking about the past, we're talking about where they stand NOW. And currently, Jason is bowling better than Wasim. It's just a matter of time before Jason really starts to wreck teams all on his own.

 

[CricketGuru]

2) We're not talking about the past, we're talking about where they stand NOW. And currently, Jason is bowling better than Wasim. It's just a matter of time before Jason really starts to wreck teams all on his own.

Thats the problem man we are still waiting for Gillespie to start wrecking the teams on his own and wasim actually started off that way 8D

 

[aussie_beater]

Originally posted by Top_Cat
In fact, considering their relative consistency and accuracy, I would have picked Gillespie even when Wasim was in his prime in a situation like that.

Oh ! What a relief ?...I can safely bet all my money against a team which would have a selector like you I will give you a cut out of my winnings too.


[Edited on 15/11/2002 by aussie_beater]

 

[nehrafan]

Originally posted by Top_Cat

As far as the last 10 matches are concerned, Akram has slightly better figures in tests and Gillespie has slightly better figures in one dayers. Your "no-one in their right mind" theory doesn't seem to pan out when you look at the figures.

Oh come on, use your rational rather than emotional head, will ya? Gillespie is a bowler most definately on the way up whilst Akram's best days are behind him. Most people would probably pick Gillespie on that basis in itself.

Stats say little about how well Gillespie is bowling against top opposition right now. Stats don't really say anywhere near everything about a player anyway. It's pretty obvious who is bowling better right now. All you have to do is watch both of them bowl.

Also, you neglected to mention the opposition in Wasim's last 10 Tests:

WI, SL, England and Bangladesh.

Gillespie's last 10 Tests:

England, NZ, Pakistan and South Africa.

Kind of puts those stats in perspective, yes?

[Edited on 15/11/2002 by Top_Cat]

The batting lineup of the Pakistan team against which Australia played was the weakest among all the playing nation including Bangladesh!!

So basically the opponent the bowler faced were more or less of same strength!

 

[nehrafan]

][/quote]

1) Absolute rubbish. I've seen Jason bowl in plenty of pressure matches and he's come through more often than not. In fact, considering their relative consistency and accuracy, I would have picked Gillespie even when Wasim was in his prime in a situation like that. ow, if I wanted to get a quick wicket or three (considering Wasim's propensity for hat-tricks), that would be a different story.

. [/quote]

Interestingly Australian team occasionally gets a pressure match, so its amazing to have seen Jason performed remarkably on many occasions.
The crunch matches i rememeber were basically dominated by McGrath and Warne.

Prefering Jason when Waseem was in his prime?? I'm sure most ppl would disagree with this!

 

[Top_Cat]

Errr, as anemic as the Pakistan line-up was, I don't think that's actually the case. Even with the younger players, Pakistan's batting was far superior to Bangladesh's.

Either way, it's obvious that Gillespie has played against much stronger opposition than Wasim has in their respective last 10 Tests.

 

[nehrafan]

Thats not correct, the school boys might have been more talented than the Bangladeshis, but their inexperiance was the main reason why the crumbled so easily.Bangladesh would NEVER had gone out for a score less than 53!!

Except for SA, all the other team Jason played against were not so strong.Also, SL has one of the best batting line up in the world when they are playing in Sub continent!!

 

[onemangang]

[2) We're not talking about the past, we're talking about where they stand NOW. And currently, Jason is bowling better than Wasim. It's just a matter of time before Jason really starts to wreck teams all on his own.

Jason is a good bowler but he isn't so great as is being made of.
His one big weakness is that he's injury prone, the guy has a long way to go before he can be considered anywehere near great!

 

[Top_Cat]

Interestingly Australian team occasionally gets a pressure match, so its amazing to have seen Jason performed remarkably on many occasions.
The crunch matches i rememeber were basically dominated by McGrath and Warne.

Well you obviously didn't see Jason bowl in the WI in 1999, as an example.

Prefering Jason when Waseem was in his prime?? I'm sure most ppl would disagree with this!

Don't misrepresent what I said. I was talking about the situation mentioned (10 runs off the final over etc.). I would definately choose Jason consistency over Wasim's wicket-taking ability because there's always the possibility Wasim would get hit around searching for a wicket.

In most other situations, you'd obviously go for Wasim in his prime, though.

Thats not correct, the school boys might have been more talented than the Bangladeshis, but their inexperiance was the main reason why the crumbled so easily.Bangladesh would NEVER had gone out for a score less than 53!!

You cannot possibly say that with any conviction whatsoever because Australia have not played against Australia yet. Until they do, your point is at least conjecture and at worst moot.

Jason is a good bowler but he isn't so great as is being made of.
His one big weakness is that he's injury prone, the guy has a long way to go before he can be considered anywehere near great!

Again, don't misrepresent what I've said. I never said he was 'great' but merely that he's bowling better than Wasim Akram at the moment.

Another factor which proves my point is that some of the results in Akram's last 10 Tests were almost three years ago. Wasim isn't even in the Test side, ergo Jason is bowling better RIGHT NOW.

Some of you should learn what a 'Straw-Man Fallacy' is and understand why you shouldn't use them in a debate.

 

[nehrafan]

[Warne.[/b]

Well you obviously didn't see Jason bowl in the WI in 1999, as an example.

Thats just one example, i never that Jason never performed in a crunch match, but to say that he has done it many time defy logic as Aus occasionaly rarely get to play pressure matches.

 

[Top_Cat]

Good point but I'd still say that under pressure conditions (when they've happened) Jason has done pretty well. And the WI tour of 1999 isn't just one example as that tour was VERY close in both Tests and one-dayers. There were a few close matches and it was because of the bowling of guys like Jason that some instances were even close, as opposed to a heavy loss.

 

[wasims_fan]

quote]Prefering Jason when Waseem was in his prime?? I'm sure most ppl would disagree with this![/quote]

Don't misrepresent what I said. I was talking about the situation mentioned (10 runs off the final over etc.). I would definately choose Jason consistency over Wasim's wicket-taking ability because there's always the possibility Wasim would get hit around searching for a wicket.

Yeah right!i think he will bowl yorkers at that stage and no one will be able to play them8D. and i always have seen that gillespie and mcgrath are being smacked all over the ground in the final overs.I do hope they will learn how to bowl good yorkers like wasim .I really do think they should concentrate on that bit otherwise razzaq and wasim may smack them for more.

 

[anzac]

just a point I wish to clear up - I picked the Pakistan attack over Australia for VARIETY because they had a lefty in their line up, who happened to be a class bowler and not just another pretender. I was not making any comparison between Wasim or Dizzy, just the differences in line.

Australia uses right arm seamers whereas Pakistan has a lefty - therefore they win the VARIETY stakes as both have access to similar style spinners.

Now if Australia were to reintroduce someone like Bracken to their ODI team that would be a different story. Then we could debate the relative merits of the bowlers head to head as to who is the BEST as the VARIETY stakes would be evened up.....

b4 I forget - didn't India cop a hammering on their last tour to SA & aren't SL coping the same now? Both batting lineups would appear to need to show a big improvement under those conditions b4 being rated as likely contenders........

 

[Eclipse]

last year Statisticly Gillespie beat the bat more that any other player in world cricket.
I think at times Gillespie bowls to well for his own good because the batsman just cant get a nick on it.

 

[CricketGuru]

Originally posted by Eclipse
last year Statisticly Gillespie beat the bat more that any other player in world cricket.
I think at times Gillespie bowls to well for his own good because the batsman just cant get a nick on it.

Well thats the point that Wasim is so much better because he cant only beat the ball on his will but he has so much control that he makes the batsmen go for the ball and that what makes them nick, Gillespie can ask wasim if he wants to learn that technique