Which players would be locks in every OTHER country’s ATG XI?

[subshakerz]

Keith Miller

I am not sure Miller makes the side himself. I have been convinced by @kyear2 and his argument that four main bowlers are enough in an ATG XI, which means no room for Miller.

The only question is if Kallis makes it over regular middle order bats like Smith, Ponting, Chappell. I don't think so.

 

[subshakerz]

The Australian AT XI doesn't need another top order batsman, let alone one as stultifying as Kallis. There's a stack of players who do his job as well if not better with the bat - Smith, Ponting, Chappell, Border, Waugh to name just four I've seen play.

Yup. Kallis would drag that batting lineup.

In fact, the Aus AT XI probably doesn't need an all rounder either. If one gets in at all it would be a bowling AR like Davo or MIller but they'd bat at eight behind Gilchrist. Their bowling stats are good enough to make it (they average something like 20 and 23 respectively) and their batting is just a bonus. The middle order for an Aus AT team would likely be something like Bradman, Smith, then two of the likes of GChappell/ Ponting/ Border/ SWaugh/ Macartney/ Harvey/ McCabe/ AN Other followed by Gilchrist then Davo or Miller at eight, Warne nine, Lillee ten and McGrath eleven. TBH there's no point any other AT side bothering to walk on the park against it.

I can put in Miller now, but frankly Cummins would make a case of replacing him as Miller may not be quite up for the bowling load of a regular seamer.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I am not sure Miller makes the side himself. I have been convinced by @kyear2 and his argument that four main bowlers are enough in an ATG XI, which means no room for Miller.

The only question is if Kallis makes it over regular middle order bats like Smith, Ponting, Chappell. I don't think so.

Kallis over Ponting very comfortably Imo if you include his bowling. If you want to keep Ponting for attacking cricket Or Border or Waugh down the order then Chappell has to make room.
You need to take 20 wickets of the opposition team to win a match, a man 5 bowling attack with a capable 5th option like Miller is underrated. And with Bradman, Gilchrist, Davidson and Lindwall; I really don't think the batting is suffering really.

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis over Ponting very comfortably Imo if you include his bowling. If you want to keep Ponting for attacking cricket Or Border or Waugh down the order then Chappell has to make room.
You need to take 20 wickets of the opposition team to win a match, a man 5 bowling attack with a capable 5th option like Miller is underrated. And with Bradman, Gilchrist, Davidson and Lindwall; I really don't think the batting is suffering really.

Knowing the Aussie mindset, I don't think they drop alpha batting champs like Ponting or Chappell for Kallis' extra bowling. A South African captain might do that but Aussies always put their best specialists forward first.

Maybe Border because he is a grinder.

 

[Coronis]

Mostly agree with this. I'd add Warne, Steve Smith and Kallis.

Personally - I would have them too, as well as Hammond. But as we can see in this thread there is a lot of discussion over certain players, so I wouldn’t call them locks.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Knowing the Aussie mindset, I don't think they drop alpha batting champs like Ponting or Chappell for Kallis' extra bowling. A South African captain might do that but Aussies always put their best specialists forward first.

Maybe Border because he is a grinder.

Point being, if Miller isn't playing (which I believe he should in Kallis' absence, a competent leading 5th bowler is being underrated), the you would certainly benefit from Kallis' bowling, be it in place of anyone.

 

[subshakerz]

Point being, if Miller isn't playing (which I believe he should in Kallis' absence, a competent leading 5th bowler is being underrated), the you would certainly benefit from Kallis' bowling, be it in place of anyone.

Miller has a better case as 4th bowling option and batting at no.8 as @Burgey mentioned.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Miller has a better case as 4th bowling option and batting at no.8 as @Burgey mentioned.

I don't think so personally. Had it been Imran, I would had agreed, but despite having similar averages, Miller is a much better bat and much worse bowler than him. I don't think having him at 6, Gilly at 7, Davidson at 8 and Lindwall at 9; with Don himself at 3, is worse than any batting order by any margin and having him as a 5th bowler is a significant stronghold.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think so personally. Had it been Imran, I would had agreed, but despite having similar averages, Miller is a much better bat and much worse bowler than him. I don't think having him at 6, Gilly at 7, Davidson at 8 and Lindwall at 9; with Don himself at 3, is worse than any batting order by any margin and having him as a 5th bowler is a significant stronghold.

Bradman/Smith/Ponting/Chappell/Gilly/Miller is much better than Bradman/Smith/Chappell/Miller/Gilly/Davidson.

Lindwall can't make 9 as Warne/Lillee/McGrath is a lock.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Bradman/Smith/Chappell/Ponting/Gilchrist/Warne/Cummins/Lillee/McGrath

 

[subshakerz]

Bradman/Smith/Chappell/Ponting/Gilchrist/Warne/Cummins/Lillee/McGrath

I am partial to this but at the moment, I put Miller ahead of Cummins. Once Cummins retires he ends up there.

 

[centurymaker]

Miller doesn't deserve selection neither at no.8 as a bowler because he only picked 3 wickets per test nor at no.6 as more of a batter because he only averaged mid 30s with the bat.

In an ATG contest he will get wrecked. Better off picking a proper no.6 batsman avging 50 and a proper no.8 bowler who can pick 4+WPM.

 

[subshakerz]

Miller doesn't deserve selection neither at no.8 as a bowler because he only picked 3 wickets per test nor at no.6 as more of a batter because he only averaged mid 30s with the bat.

In an ATG contest he will get wrecked. Better off picking a proper no.6 batsman avging 50 and a proper no.8 bowler who can pick 4+WPM.

One can make the argument that with Lillee, McGrath and Warne, Miller's load will manage itself. I agree he doesnt belong at no.6.

 

[centurymaker]

Davidson > Miller at no.8
better bowler easily and can bat too.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Bradman/Smith/Ponting/Chappell/Gilly/Miller is much better than Bradman/Smith/Chappell/Miller/Gilly/Davidson.

Lindwall can't make 9 as Warne/Lillee/McGrath is a lock.

Lindwall over Lillee for me considering their overall skill sets. And likewise, McGrath/Warne/Lindwall/Davidson/Miller is much stronger than McGrath/Warne/Lillee/Davidson
Miller is perfectly fine at no 6, having him as a frontline bowler with only 3 others doesn't makes any sense though.

 

[subshakerz]

Lindwall over Lillee for me considering their overall skill sets. And likewise, McGrath/Warne/Lindwall/Davidson/Miller is much stronger than McGrath/Warne/Lillee/Davidson
Miller is perfectly fine at no 6, having him as a frontline bowler with only 3 others doesn't makes any sense though.

No Lillee is an Aus XI? That ain't on.

I agree, there is a question about Milkers bowling capacity as a 4th seamer, but overall I feel he is more suitable at no.8.

 

[Bolo.]

The range of opinions on the number of bowling options is interesting.

I think without several options, you are committing to a lot of draws/losses. A bunch of bowlers who failed to take 20WPM between them in real world matches are not going to find the going easier against ATGs.

 

[subshakerz]

The range of opinions on the number of bowling options is interesting.

I think without several options, you are committing to a lot of draws/losses. A bunch of bowlers who failed to take 20WPM between them in real world matches are not going to find the going easier against ATGs.

On the contrary, as long as you have four worldclass bowlers who are all capable strike bowlers, the difference between a Cummins or Davidson or Miller as fourth seamer doesn't matter much.

ATG bats they faced are the ones who are going to struggle.

 

[Coronis]

The range of opinions on the number of bowling options is interesting.

I think without several options, you are committing to a lot of draws/losses. A bunch of bowlers who failed to take 20WPM between them in real world matches are not going to find the going easier against ATGs.

tbf how many of your ATG teams have 20 wpm across the bowlers?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Isn't part of the reason Miller has a lower wpm that australia had a pretty deep bowling lineup with lots of options at the time? And they played 5 bowlers quite often I think.