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Which 4 heads would you put on a cricketing Mount Rushmore?

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CaptainGrumpy

Banned
Who was the greatest driving force behind neutral umpires? Was there any individual that clearly stands out in achieving this? Not sure that this ammount to a Rushmore greatest four, but it is significant.
 
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mr_mister

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
captaingrumpy are you being daft on purpose? there is no reasonable argument to not include bradman on this mountain.
 
Teja.

Teja.

Global Moderator
I think the names who are remembered most closely with cricketing 'revolutions' partly due to them being awesome and partly due to being in the right country at the right time would be ideal.

Grace, Bradman, Viv, Tendulkar.

First two are obvious. Viv due to the whole grovelling thing and averaging 80 and dominating everyone between 76-80 and establishing WI not just as gentlemen having fun but the most formidable team to ever take a cricket field. Other players, especially the bowlers were as important but most importantly, Viv was the symbol that the new WI will take no prisoners and tolerate no nonsense.

Tendulkar's case as a symbol is obvious. You could make arguments that Murali, Kallis and maybe Warne were better test cricketers etc. but due to a combination of India's liberalization and growing middle class leading to increase in the significance of the BCCI and Tendulkar being the excellent ODI cricketer of his generation in a time where ODIs become the most commercially valuable form of a cricket and his career touching four decades, for better or worse and due no small part to fortune, Tendulkar is the representative of post-90s cricket, IMO. People who're taking about an objective assessment of cricketing worth are missing the point of symbols. Just my opinion.
 
C

CaptainGrumpy

Banned
mr_mister said:
well then thats silly as he is the probably the best sportsman of all time when you consider how much of a statistical outlier he was compared to everyone else(yes i know there are a few other examples of this, especially wheelchair tennis and greco roman wrestling. and michael phelps)

terms like bradmanesque and next-bradman and black bradman and left handed bradman and best after bradman are all terms that have been thrown around. his name is synonymous with batting, and after playing for twenty years he selected for many years after. also he has a bloody museum
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CaptainGrumpy said:
I don't necessarily disagree with the above. But it was on his watch as as an administrator that the World Series Cricket revolution occurred under Kerry Packer. You should read around why this occurred.

Cricket was already the national sport of Australia with great appeal before Bradman was it not? Bradman is the best batsmen to have played the game. That is not in dispute and nor is it the issue. Sobers, according to Bradman, was the best cricketer to have played the game. That also is not in dispute and nor is it the issue at present (but I prefer Imran Khan to Sobers myself).

The issue is, is this the founding fathers of cricket as we know it today, or is it a hall of fame for on field performances?
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CaptainGrumpy said:
Almost unanimous. There is a few of us in the Imran greater than Sobers camp. We are outnumbered, but we exist.

I have WG Grace and Kerry Packer as certainties on this mountain.

I am not sure Kerry Packer ever played the game, but he is up there on that mountain for mine. Cricket under lights, players in pyjamas, white balls, players professionally reimbursed, players not retiring so early because they are paid to play, multiple camera angles, great tv product, new rules...
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CaptainGrumpy said:
Heh. I am not disputing Bradman as the greatest batsmen of all time. I am just saying, if this is Mount Rushmore of the founding fathers of modern professional cricket as we know it today, then Kerry Packer led the "Packer revolution" successfully and did more to change, develop and evolve the game than Bradman did.
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mr_mister said:
captaingrumpy are you being daft on purpose? there is no reasonable argument to not include bradman on this mountain.
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Bradman was the greatest batsmen test cricket has seen. His captaincy has been questioned, especially in regards to O'Reilly and Grimmett. But even ignoring that, what is your argument for Bradman to be included as a founding father of modern cricket other than "Bradman scored runs at a higher average than anyone else". Washington was a driving force behind the USA gaining independence from Britain as a nation, both as a general and as the first president, Jefferson, a driving force with Washington himself, wrote some fundamental constitutional documents, Lincoln freed the slaves. Those are massive changes that evolved the United States.

Bradman scored runs. I agree. Bradman scored them at an incredible average. I agree. Bradman is the greatest test batsmen ever. I agree.

I still do not think he is a certainty for this mountain and I would have him behind WG Grace and Kerry Packer. If there was a William Webb Ellis equivalent who created the rules of cricket, Bradman would be behind him too.
 
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mr_mister

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
get over the founding father thing. mount rushmore had 2 founding fathers, not 4. its a combination of things including founding fathers and damn good presidents (abe lincoln). it was meant to represent different eras.

bradman can represent a big, big era
 
fredfertang

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
mr_mister said:
captaingrumpy are you being daft on purpose? there is no reasonable argument to not include bradman on this mountain.
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Bradman didn't change the way the game was played though - he just happened to be significantly better at it than anyone before him (or since come to that)
 
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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CaptainGrumpy said:
Bradman was the greatest batsmen test cricket has seen. His captaincy has been questioned, especially in regards to O'Reilly and Grimmett. But even ignoring that, what is your argument for Bradman to be included as a founding father of modern cricket other than "Bradman scored runs at a higher average than anyone else". Washington was a driving force behind the USA gaining independence from Britain as a nation, both as a general and as the first president, Jefferson, a driving force with Washington himself, wrote some fundamental constitutional documents, Lincoln freed the slaves. Those are massive changes that evolved the United States.

Bradman scored runs. I agree. Bradman scored them at an incredible average. I agree. Bradman is the greatest test batsmen ever. I agree.

I still do not think he is a certainty for this mountain and I would have him behind WG Grace and Kerry Packer. If there was a William Webb Ellis equivalent who created the rules of cricket, Bradman would be behind him too.
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fredfertang said:
Bradman didn't change the way the game was played though - he just happened to be significantly better at it than anyone before him (or since come to that)
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It can be argued Bradman's ridiculous level of runmaking caused Jardine to come up with bodyline and consequently change cricket forever not only in terms of changes to the rules, but also in showing what an asset a great, quick, intimidating fast bowler can be.
 
C

CaptainGrumpy

Banned
mr_mister said:
get over the founding father thing. mount rushmore had 2 founding fathers, not 4. its a combination of things including founding fathers and damn good presidents (abe lincoln). it was meant to represent different eras.

bradman can represent a big, big era
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Fine, I have used a historically defined term of "founding father" inaccurately. But Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt were great presidents who oversaw great changes and developments to evolve modern America, from freeing the slaves under Lincoln, to the USA becoming a hugely significant actor in foreign politics and economic reform (including anti-trust law enforcement) under Roosevelt.
 
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