where would england rank among the great sides of the past?

[Jacknife]

yeah, finn has a lot of work to do, but he didn't get 50 wickets in no time for his birthday.

awta.

 

[smash84]

Wouldnt go that far tbh. Woakes, Finn, Dernbach and Harris are all not yet test class.

neither is Shahzad I should think

 

[Furball]

Lets face it we probably have 3 attacks that could go out and do the business against most sides outside the top 3.

Anderson, Broad, Tremlett and Swann

Bresnan, Finn, Onions and Panesar

Shahzad, Woakes, Harris/Dernbach and Rashid/Briggs

I can certainly think of some England sides in the last 20 years with a weaker attack than the last one.

Add in the batting talent coming through with Taylor, Stokes and Bairstow just to name a few and the future looks pretty good. How good they are only time will tell but I can never remember such depth in an England squad, crikey we spent much of the last 20 years continuing to pick failures as there was nobody better.

First choice attack:

Anderson - 231 wickets @ 30.65
Broad - 122 wickets @ 33.18
Tremlett - 49 wickets @ 25.67
Swann - 142 wickets @ 28.81

Total - 544 wickets @ 30.29

Second choice attack:

Bresnan - 32 wickets @ 25.09
Finn - 50 wickets @ 26.92
Onions - 28 wickets @ 31.03
Panesar - 126 wickets @ 34.37

Total - 236 wickets @ 31.14

Most teams I reckon would kill for that 2nd string attack.

 

[Furball]

Since the start of our unbeaten run:

AJ Strauss - 1,477 runs @ 35.16, 2 100s, 10 50s
AN Cook - 2,462 runs @ 54.71, 10 100s, 7 50s
IJL Trott - 1,965 runs @ 57.79, 6 100s, 7 50s
KP Pietersen - 1,678 runs @ 45.35, 2 100s, 10 50s
IR Bell - 1,754 runs @ 67.46, 7 100s, 9 50s
EJG Morgan - 513 runs @ 34.20, 1 100, 3 50s
MJ Prior - 1,566 runs @ 43.50, 4 100s, 11 50s
SCJ Broad - 868 runs @ 28.93, 1 100, 5 50s, 84 wickets @ 29.83, 3 5w
GP Swann - 758 runs @ 24.45, 4 50s, 115 wickets @ 28.86, 8 5w, 1 10w
CT Tremlett - 36 wickets @ 24.22, 2 5w
JM Anderson - 114 wickets @ 25.74, 6 5w, 1 10w
-------------------
RS Bopara - 356 runs @ 39.55, 2 100s
ST Finn - 50 wickets @ 26.92, 3 5w
TT Bresnan - 265 runs @ 37.85, 2 50s, 32 wickets @ 25.09, 1 5w
G Onions - 28 wickets @ 31.03, 1 5w

Not a bad side eh?

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah, Finn has a lot of work to do, but he didn't get 50 wickets in no time for his birthday.

Lets not kid ourselves here. The neighbors dog could have taken just as many wickets as Finn did last summer given the batting that turned up.

I understand that Finn might have made most test sides, but I dont think he would have stayed in those sides for very long.

 

[JBMAC]

^^^^^^awta

 

[Son Of Coco]

Second choice attack:

Bresnan - 32 wickets @ 25.09
Finn - 50 wickets @ 26.92
Onions - 28 wickets @ 31.03
Panesar - 126 wickets @ 34.37

Total - 236 wickets @ 31.14

Most teams I reckon would kill for that 2nd string attack.

What would be interesting to see is how parts of that 2nd string attack would go if they became the 1st string attack without Anderson, Broad, Tremlett etc giving assistance.

But yes, Bresnan and Onions would do nicely for the Australian attack at the moment.

 

[Uppercut]

Lets not kid ourselves here. The neighbors dog could have taken just as many wickets as Finn did last summer given the batting that turned up.

Indeed. Anyone can get out such clowns as Shane Watson, Simon Katich, Michael Clarke, Ricky Ponting and Mike Hussey.

Wait, what?

 

[Uppercut]

To be honest I think Finn's just kinda had the rub of the green in his test career so far and come away with better figures than he really deserved. The English selectors acknowledged as much when they dropped him during the Ashes.

 

[tooextracool]

Indeed. Anyone can get out such clowns as Shane Watson, Simon Katich, Michael Clarke, Ricky Ponting and Mike Hussey.

Wait, what?

Was referring more to Imrul Kayes, Junaid Siddeque, Mohammad Ashraful, Umar Amin, Umar Akmal, Salman Butt, Yasir Hameed and the like. Especially in bowler friendly English conditions.

Given the post that you have followed up with, I suspect you are on the same page as I. Those 2 series are the only times he's averaged under 30, and to be real honest his 14 wickets in Australia truly do flatter how well he bowled.

 

[Jarquis]

Don't know why Woakes wouldn't be Test class. He may not be but I wouldn't be confident in saying so.
The guy continuously comes up trumps. Takes wickets for Warwickshire for fun, has taken them even cheaper for the Lions when he's played and basically never seems to disappear around the park even when he's having a bad game.
That'd be my main criticism of Shahzad, Finn and Harris. When they're off they get carted.

 

[Jacknife]

To be honest I think Finn's just kinda had the rub of the green in his test career so far and come away with better figures than he really deserved. The English selectors acknowledged as much when they dropped him during the Ashes.

Yes he leaked runs and that's the reason he got dropped but I don't agree that he didn't deserve his wickets, if you bowl good deliveries, which he does and get players out, you deserve them. The only real problem with Finn atm is his tendency to bowl a poor delivery or two, which is brought on by losing his action but I reckon as he matures,he will iron that out. I don't think anyone can doubt he bowls enough good deliveries to take plenty of wickets and that's the argument Holding makes when he talks about Finn and why he rates him so highly.

 

[Uppercut]

It's more a case of Finn bowling a load of horrible, horrible pies then taking a wicket with the first ball he manages to get vaguely on target. Reminds me of Mitchell Johnson in the '09 Ashes.

 

[Jacknife]

Nah don't see it that way at all.

 

[Prince EWS]

Nah I agree with Uppercut. Finn's 'good' balls aren't unplayable or anything; they're just the sort of balls you'd expect someone like Tremlett to bowl 4 times out of 6 in every over. He doesn't tend to get wickets with pies like Johnson does, but I do think he's been a little lucky in that he tends to take wickets whenever he bowls vaguely decently. That said, I don't profess to be a better judge of the game than the game itself so he should remain pretty high on the pecking list of England bowlers as long as keeps performing domestically. He's someone who would deserve selection but who I wouldn't have a lot of faith in because he defies logic.

 

[Jacknife]

Nah I agree with Uppercut. Finn's 'good' balls aren't unplayable or anything; they're just the sort of balls you'd expect someone like Tremlett to bowl 4 times out of 6 in every over. He doesn't tend to get wickets with pies like Johnson does, but I do think he's been a little lucky in that he tends to take wickets whenever he bowls vaguely decently. That said, I don't profess to be a better judge of the game than the game itself so he should remain pretty high on the pecking list of England bowlers as long as keeps performing domestically. He's someone who would deserve selection but who I wouldn't have a lot of faith in because he defies logic.

I just didn't agree with this 'Finn bowling a load of horrible, horrible pies then taking a wicket with the first ball he manages to get vaguely on target'.
It's funny, in that I'd only just been watching the DVD collection thing of this last Ashes and it reminded me at the time that he actually bowled some very nice spells.

The thing that I do like about Finn apart form his natural attributes, is that he pitches the ball up and his natural length is quite full especially for a guy his size and that also proves his downfall a bit because he sometimes throws up half volleys. I also like that he seems to have put some pace on recently and there are not too many guys faster than him in England. He bowled a spell on TV in the CB40 where there wasn't a ball under 90 and most were around 92-94mph. I know it isn't all about pace and it was only in limited overs but still, you can see that he's still maturing and developing.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

To be fair to Finnhe is still only a kid learning the game, he bowls a lot of 4 balls but Broad and Anderson used to do that all the time too when they first entered the England side. When he matures a bit I think Finn will be a seriously good bowler and teams better watch out.

 

[smash84]

awta

 

[tooextracool]

I just didn't agree with this 'Finn bowling a load of horrible, horrible pies then taking a wicket with the first ball he manages to get vaguely on target'.
It's funny, in that I'd only just been watching the DVD collection thing of this last Ashes and it reminded me at the time that he actually bowled some very nice spells.

The thing that I do like about Finn apart form his natural attributes, is that he pitches the ball up and his natural length is quite full especially for a guy his size and that also proves his downfall a bit because he sometimes throws up half volleys. I also like that he seems to have put some pace on recently and there are not too many guys faster than him in England. He bowled a spell on TV in the CB40 where there wasn't a ball under 90 and most were around 92-94mph. I know it isn't all about pace and it was only in limited overs but still, you can see that he's still maturing and developing.

I dont think anybody will deny that Finn has a lot of potential and as you mention a lot of other players would kill to have those natural attributes. However, I don't think hes ready for test cricket at the moment and I suspect that Andy Flower feels the same way, hence why he was dropped midway through the Australian tour. He needs a year or two to learn his trade at the domestic level and discover what kind of bowler he really is before he can play again.

 

[akilana]

I have changed my views about the England team.

They have the most balanced team and almost everyone in form.

Good openers, good middle order, a good keeper-batsman and good bowlers that can bat.

Poor man's Australia(95-07)

I used to support England over India but this time was supporting India.. deserve MOS.