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Where does Lara rate?

WI fan

Cricket Spectator
Gentlemen I have been posting alot on an forum page in India, and I have been really getting into the stats on the SRT and BCL and it makes for very interesting analysis. On the surface they may appear to be eerily similar but you have to start dissecting them and then you start to see the difference between the two. So off to the stats we go!!!!
 

WI fan

Cricket Spectator
Tendulkar 123 tests with 198 innings.
Lara 121 tests with 214 innings.

Tendulkar 10,134 runs with 34 centuries.
Lara 11,204 runs with 31 centuries.

Tendulkar batting average 57.25 and innings average of 51.18.
Lara batting average 53.87 and innings average of 52.36.

Tendulkar - 4 x 200's - H.S. 248*
Lara - 8 x 200's, 2 x 300's, 1 x 400 - H.S. 400*

Tendulkar - 1000 runs in a year - 4 times
Lara - 1000 runs in a year - 5 times

Tendulkar - S/R - not available
Lara - S/R - 60.55
 

WI fan

Cricket Spectator
Lara has hit 78 sixes in tests and is 4th all time to Cairns with 87, Gilchrist with 85 and Richards with 84.

Tendulkar is 26th on the list with 40.

Lara is 5th on the list for most boundaries in an innings with 47 - 4 sixes and 43 fours. He also makes the list two more times with 45 boundaries then 38 boundaries.

Lara makes the list 3 times. No other batsman makes the list more than twice.

Sachin does not make the list at all.

So if you want to see explosive batting from a player who can dissect the field and keep this up for a prolonged period then there is only one player and that is the King of Runs - BRIAN CHARLES LARA.
 

WI fan

Cricket Spectator
I am still trying to find one stat that proves Sachin is better than Lara in tests.

Lara has scored more, batted for longer durations, more crisis situations, more explosive, prettier to watch, more pressure, more unfair dismissals.

More doubles, more triples, only quadruple in test history.

Highest score by a test captain 400 n.o., double century as test debut century 277, highest score by any visiting batsman in Australia 277.

Most runs in an over in tests - 28.

Four (4) innings rated in 100 greatest of all time.

Highest score in all 1st class cricket 501 n.o.

Most runs in a day - 389 (501 n.o.)
 

WI fan

Cricket Spectator
Can anyone tell me why we are even having this discussion? Can anyone tell me after looking after the career stats carefully how then can Sachin Tendulkar be considered better or for that matter, equal to Brian Lara. Please someone tell me. I am waiting but I am not going to hold my breath!

Think of even the centuries in a different way.

Sachin has 34 test centuries of which 4 are double hundreds. Therefore he has 4x200 + 30x100 = 38 multiples of a hundred runs.

Lara has 31 test centuries of which 6 are between 200-299, 1 between 300-399 and 1 score of 400. Therefore he has 1x400 + 1x300 + 6x200 + 23x100 = 42 multiples of a hundred runs.

Once again Brian Lara rules!!!!!
 

WI fan

Cricket Spectator
Now let us see very carefully who these centuries are being scored against because the number of centuries is the only one that Sachin leads Lara on.

Sachin Tendulkar Centuries vs Lara Centuries

Australia - Tendulkar 7 : Lara 9
England - Tendulkar 6 : Lara 7
South Africa - Tendulkar 3 : Lara 4
Sri Lanka - Tendulkar 6 : Lara 5
Pakistan - Tendulkar 2 : Lara 2

New Zealand - Tendulkar 3 : Lara 1
Zimbabwe - Tendulkar 3 : Lara 1
Bangladesh - Tendulkar 1 : Lara 1

West Indies - Tendulkar 3
India - Lara 1

Is anyone seeing what I am seeing. Against the top bowling attacks of the last 15 years (Australia, England, South Africa, Sri Lanka and Pakistan) Lara has 27 centuries while Tendulkar has 24. If we add in West Indies and India then Lara has 28 tons and Tendulkar has 27.

So how come Tendulkar has 3 more centuries than Brian Lara? Well he scores them against the 3 weakest bowling and fielding teams in Test cricket namely New Zealand, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Tendulkar out scores Lara 7 to 3. Tendulkar just dominates mediocre bowling what can I say.

So let us all just be nice and thank ourselves fortunate to have seen the Greatest Batsman of All Time.....BRIAN CHARLES LARA.
 

C_C

International Captain
Is anyone seeing what I am seeing. Against the top bowling attacks of the last 15 years (Australia, England, South Africa, Sri Lanka and Pakistan) Lara has 27 centuries while Tendulkar has 24. If we add in West Indies and India then Lara has 28 tons and Tendulkar has 27.


So how come Tendulkar has 3 more centuries than Brian Lara? Well he scores them against the 3 weakest bowling and fielding teams in Test cricket namely New Zealand, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Tendulkar out scores Lara 7 to 3. Tendulkar just dominates mediocre bowling what can I say.

So let us all just be nice and thank ourselves fortunate to have seen the Greatest Batsman of All Time.....BRIAN CHARLES LARA.
Utter bullcrap.
First, Bradman is the greatest batsman of alltime, not BCL.
Second, Lara is clearly the second best to Sachin against Quality attacks.

Australia's quality attack is essentially composed of McGrath + Warne.
And while against McGrath and Warne, Lara is marginally better ( marginally- their averages are within 2 points of each other), Lara doesnt hold a candle to Tendulkar in australia.
Overall, in australia Lara averages a measley 41.97 to 54.15 to Tendulkar's.
If you bring in their averages against Australian attack of fame- McWarne- in australia, Lara's average drops to 37.14 while Tendulkar's drops to 46.33

South Africa were a quality attack before Donald retired ( this is evidenced by the decimation of many a batting lineup by Donald-Pollock through the 90s and early 2000s).

Against them, Lara averages 35.95, Tendulkar averages 34.31 but his average in South Africa against those is significantly superior to that of Lara's - 36.91 to 31.00

Pakistan's bowling attack was excellent when Wasim-Waqar were around.
Against them, Tendulkar averages 38.60 while Lara averages 30.30. In Pakistan against those bowlers, Tendulkar averages 35.83 while Lara averages 22.25.

Against Sri Lanka ( and Murali), both have exemplary records.

Infact, Lara has been one of the prime benificiaries with the flattening of the pitches in the last 5 years and the drop in bowling quality- he's heaped on the runs against South Africa and a sub-standard Pakistan and anyone who's watched Lara knows that serious fast bowling ( of the excellent type, not mediocre type) gives him a lot of trouble - he was clueless against Wasim even in his glory days ( much more so than Tendulkar, Tugga and co.) and he's struggled mightily against Donald- something Donald flat out says.
Despite the flatter pitches, bowlers like Brett Lee ( the Trinidad spell), Akhtar ( conked him in the head first ball and for a moment it looked real bad for Lara), Harmison ( in the WI last year), etc. have all given him tremendous problems.

Tendulkar hasn't capitalised that much on the significant drop in bowling quality- part owing to him not being in his stunning form and part due to his injury worries.

While Lara has more runs against South Africa + Pakistan + Australia + England, a cursory glance reveals that he's also played a lot more than Tendulkar against them.
However, it is abundantly clear that against quality attacks in their career, Tendulkar has been generally more successful than Lara.
Add to the fact that Lara never had to face Ambrose and Walsh in Test cricket ( who've given him quite a hard time in domestic competitions) and Tendulkar averages 57+ against them. Also add to the fact that Kumble + Srinath is no way equal to Ambrose + Walsh in terms of challenge posed to the batsmen.
Then throw in the fact that Tendulkar has faced more quality opposition in his career than Lara - he's played bowlers like Hadlee, Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop, the ones who can all be genuinely called alltime greats or at the very least, world class, who Lara's never had to face. The only world class/great bowler Tendy has never faced but Lara has is Kumble.

Throw in the fact that tendulkar is considerably superior to Lara away from home- this is important since its more demanding ( both skill-wise and pressure-wise) to do well in the opposition's backyard than in your own.
Lara's away average is 47.25, Tendulkar's is 56.58. Drop out Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, Tendulkar's away average is 55.58 while Lara's is 46.94.

Lara is flashier than Tendulkar - but i would rather watch Tendulkar at his best than Lara at his best- simply because while Tendulkar at his best is just a shade less aggressive than Lara, he looks much more solid than Lara does.
Add the fact that Tendulkar faces incredible pressure of expectation- 1 billion+ fans compared to 10-odd million for Lara and the media pressure just pales into comparison- this aspect has been commented on by many many cricketers in the past and if you think this doesnt make any difference, try representing your highschool in a sport and then try representing your city in a sport.

Lara's forte has been dazzling displays of brilliance amid extended periods of mediocrity. ( his one shining series vs OZ in 99 is pretty much the only successful series he's had in the 5 year span between 96 and 2001, him typically failing in all but one innings of a series to pull his average up- this series vs OZ and the last series vs ENG in the caribbean being perfect examples)
Whereas for Tendulkar, his forte has been contributing to the team's batting much more frequently in a dominant/excellent fashion.

On top of all that, add the fact that Tendulkar is 4 years younger than Lara and if he ends up playing to the same age as Lara, he will most definately go past Lara's total of runs and centuries( already ahead of it).
Simply speaking, while Lara is a great batsman in his own right, one who performs more often is simply the better player- because the job of a player is to contribute as frequently as possible.
And in this respect and against quality opposition, Tendulkar wins clearly.

Therefore, it is quite ludicrous to argue that Lara is definately better than Tendulkar, when objectively speaking, he is, at best, his equal.

Anyways, i've debated this topic to death and therefore, i am not gonna comment further on it anytime soon.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
We've heard so much about Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Viv Richards, Steve Waugh, Inzamam-ul-haq and even Matthew Hayden, but why do we not hear so much spoken about Allan Border?
 

Autobahn

State 12th Man
Arjun said:
We've heard so much about Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Viv Richards, Steve Waugh, Inzamam-ul-haq and even Matthew Hayden, but why do we not hear so much spoken about Allan Border?
True, Border dragged the aussies almost single-handedly into the modern age and began to mold them into the destroyers of the 90's.
 

WI fan

Cricket Spectator
C_C are you delusional or just smoking something incredibly strong!

Give me one seminal innings that distills SRT from the rest just one. That should not be too hard now should it? But you know what you could not find any. The good folks at Wisden don't even have one there from SRT but you know what, there are four from the King!

Both batsmen have benefitted from flatter wickets, lighter gear, restrictions to intimidatory bowling etc. The field is level for all not one.

Both players have had periods of injury which affected their form. In Lara's case it happened when he was cresting; shattered right elbow, hamstring surjery to both legs, laser surgery to both eyes, Hepatitis B....and you know there is no cure for that!

What the general statistics do show, is that both are equally consistent injuries notwithstanding. i.e Sachin has 3 more centuries but Brian has 5 more fifties.

The real determining factor is in the fine detail. Time at crease, position batted at, condition of match at start of innings, quality of opposition bowlers etc. Then after you do that look at what was achieved.

I would not consider the last three years of cricket by a man 4 years older anything to snort at! Take a look.

Tendulkar 3-year

Year M Inns NO 50s 100s HS Runs Batting Avg Innings Avg Ca St

2003 5 9 0 1 0 55 153 17.00 17.00 2 0
2004 10 15 5 2 3 *248 915 91.50 61.00 5 0
2005 3 5 0 3 0 94 255 51.00 51.00 2 0

Overall (3) 18 29 5 6 3 *248 1323 55.13 45.62 9 0


BC Lara - 3 year

Year M Inns NO 50s 100s HS Runs Batting Avg Innings Average Ca St

2003 10 19 1 5 5 209 1344 74.67 70.74 18 0
2004 12 21 1 4 3 *400 1178 58.9 56.10 13 0
2005 9 17 0 0 5 226 1110 65.29 65.29 1 0

Overall (3) 31 57 2 9 13 *400 3632 66.04 63.72 32 0

Lara has just been playing and scoring at a phenomenal rate. By the way I prefer to look at the innings average rather than the batting average as from a mathematical point of view, it gives a better idea of the "expectation" of what the batsman will achieve each time he bats.

Not bad for a batsman "past his prime" is it!

Now you have made one very provocative statement that deserves some serious thought. Lara has played more matches against Australia and England. Thats true. But if Sachin and Brian have played practically the same number of tests, does it not logically follow then, by your own reasoning, that Sachin has played against a lower standard of opposition?

Lara double centuries - Australia (3), England (2), Sri Lanka (2) and South Africa (1)

Tendulkar double centuries - Australia (1), New Zealand (1), Zimbabwe (1), Bangladesh (1)

So now I see where you are coming from C_C. if we are playing against NZ, Zim or Bangladesh and Sachin comes to the crease the world should truly tremble.

You do not need to debate it further, I agree, the statistics just do not lie.

All hail the King!!!!!
 

Slifer

International Captain
I think this is really funny but dont u C_C use this very same screen name (WIfan) when u r at Caribbeancricket.com?
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
Utter bullcrap.
First, Bradman is the greatest batsman of alltime, not BCL.
Second, Lara is clearly the second best to Sachin against Quality attacks.

Australia's quality attack is essentially composed of McGrath + Warne.
And while against McGrath and Warne, Lara is marginally better ( marginally- their averages are within 2 points of each other), Lara doesnt hold a candle to Tendulkar in australia.
Overall, in australia Lara averages a measley 41.97 to 54.15 to Tendulkar's.
If you bring in their averages against Australian attack of fame- McWarne- in australia, Lara's average drops to 37.14 while Tendulkar's drops to 46.33

South Africa were a quality attack before Donald retired ( this is evidenced by the decimation of many a batting lineup by Donald-Pollock through the 90s and early 2000s).

Against them, Lara averages 35.95, Tendulkar averages 34.31 but his average in South Africa against those is significantly superior to that of Lara's - 36.91 to 31.00

Pakistan's bowling attack was excellent when Wasim-Waqar were around.
Against them, Tendulkar averages 38.60 while Lara averages 30.30. In Pakistan against those bowlers, Tendulkar averages 35.83 while Lara averages 22.25.

Against Sri Lanka ( and Murali), both have exemplary records.

Infact, Lara has been one of the prime benificiaries with the flattening of the pitches in the last 5 years and the drop in bowling quality- he's heaped on the runs against South Africa and a sub-standard Pakistan and anyone who's watched Lara knows that serious fast bowling ( of the excellent type, not mediocre type) gives him a lot of trouble - he was clueless against Wasim even in his glory days ( much more so than Tendulkar, Tugga and co.) and he's struggled mightily against Donald- something Donald flat out says.
Despite the flatter pitches, bowlers like Brett Lee ( the Trinidad spell), Akhtar ( conked him in the head first ball and for a moment it looked real bad for Lara), Harmison ( in the WI last year), etc. have all given him tremendous problems.

Tendulkar hasn't capitalised that much on the significant drop in bowling quality- part owing to him not being in his stunning form and part due to his injury worries.

While Lara has more runs against South Africa + Pakistan + Australia + England, a cursory glance reveals that he's also played a lot more than Tendulkar against them.
However, it is abundantly clear that against quality attacks in their career, Tendulkar has been generally more successful than Lara.
Add to the fact that Lara never had to face Ambrose and Walsh in Test cricket ( who've given him quite a hard time in domestic competitions) and Tendulkar averages 57+ against them. Also add to the fact that Kumble + Srinath is no way equal to Ambrose + Walsh in terms of challenge posed to the batsmen.
Then throw in the fact that Tendulkar has faced more quality opposition in his career than Lara - he's played bowlers like Hadlee, Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop, the ones who can all be genuinely called alltime greats or at the very least, world class, who Lara's never had to face. The only world class/great bowler Tendy has never faced but Lara has is Kumble.

Throw in the fact that tendulkar is considerably superior to Lara away from home- this is important since its more demanding ( both skill-wise and pressure-wise) to do well in the opposition's backyard than in your own.
Lara's away average is 47.25, Tendulkar's is 56.58. Drop out Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, Tendulkar's away average is 55.58 while Lara's is 46.94.

Lara is flashier than Tendulkar - but i would rather watch Tendulkar at his best than Lara at his best- simply because while Tendulkar at his best is just a shade less aggressive than Lara, he looks much more solid than Lara does.
Add the fact that Tendulkar faces incredible pressure of expectation- 1 billion+ fans compared to 10-odd million for Lara and the media pressure just pales into comparison- this aspect has been commented on by many many cricketers in the past and if you think this doesnt make any difference, try representing your highschool in a sport and then try representing your city in a sport.

Lara's forte has been dazzling displays of brilliance amid extended periods of mediocrity. ( his one shining series vs OZ in 99 is pretty much the only successful series he's had in the 5 year span between 96 and 2001, him typically failing in all but one innings of a series to pull his average up- this series vs OZ and the last series vs ENG in the caribbean being perfect examples)
Whereas for Tendulkar, his forte has been contributing to the team's batting much more frequently in a dominant/excellent fashion.

On top of all that, add the fact that Tendulkar is 4 years younger than Lara and if he ends up playing to the same age as Lara, he will most definately go past Lara's total of runs and centuries( already ahead of it).
Simply speaking, while Lara is a great batsman in his own right, one who performs more often is simply the better player- because the job of a player is to contribute as frequently as possible.
And in this respect and against quality opposition, Tendulkar wins clearly.

Therefore, it is quite ludicrous to argue that Lara is definately better than Tendulkar, when objectively speaking, he is, at best, his equal.

Anyways, i've debated this topic to death and therefore, i am not gonna comment further on it anytime soon.
well CC you know we had this argument before & everything you have said here is pin point accurate about Tendulkar & Lara. You have my backing mate... :cool:
 

greg

International Debutant
C_C fights his corner well, although i don't agree with this:

Lara is flashier than Tendulkar - but i would rather watch Tendulkar at his best than Lara at his best- simply because while Tendulkar at his best is just a shade less aggressive than Lara, he looks much more solid than Lara does.
Whether Lara looks solid or not when he is at his best (by this I mean when he is in form and has played himself in at the wicket), the fact is that he is.
 

Slifer

International Captain
I think everyone has some sort of personal bias when it comes to this issue and they can even manipulate the stats to this end. Even the so-called cricket experts when they weigh in on this topic wil have their own personal biases. i know who i think is better and i know y as well but for now i will say both are equal. nothing wrong with being equal!!
 

Jason_M

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
That 248 Tendulkar scored in Australia would have to go down as the worst double hundred ever made. The fact is Lara has more talent than Sachin, not even the most fanatical Tendulkar fans can deny this, when he is in full flight no one gets even close to his brilliance.

Somebody summed it up perfectly earlier in this discussion when he said that the Aussies fear Lara more because if he gets away they know they are pretty much helpless in stopping him, whereas with Tendulkar he can be contained a little more, i agree with that 100% particularly in Australian conditions Tendulkar has never really gotten away from Aussies.

I also like the way Lara bats because its unique and very refreshing in today's game where most batsmen look the same in their techniques and strokeplay. That shot Lara played to McGrath to bring up the world record was just something else.
 

C_C

International Captain
That 248 Tendulkar scored in Australia would have to go down as the worst double hundred ever made. The fact is Lara has more talent than Sachin, not even the most fanatical Tendulkar fans can deny this, when he is in full flight no one gets even close to his brilliance.
The 248 was one of the best double tons i've ever seen, simply due to its tremendous display of discipline and fighting spirit- he made it after enduring a horrid patch and overcame his loss of form by modifying his technique and strokeplay- that is adaptation of the highest kind.

As per Lara being more talented- what is talent ? ability to be flashy and play attractive shots ? By that count, Shahid Afridi leaves Lara in the dust. The complete blend of batting- physical and mental makes a more talented player and i highly doubt you can call a player, who made debut at the age of 16, faced one of the most fearsome bowling attacks in his debut series and did rather decently ( 35 ave. against Imran+Wasim+Waqar+Qadir is more than most batsmen at their very peak manage), is the youngest to almost every single milestone, a less 'talented' player.

The Aussie media and fans might like the sense of drama that Lara instills but most Australian players are on record saying that Tendulkar is the best batsman of his generation- McGrath, Gillespie, Warne, Steve Waugh, Ponting, etc. have all said so.
Opinions dont matter much but if i were to take opinions into account, i would rather take the one of neutral players than fans.
 

donwasaverage

Cricket Spectator
And both of them such fabulously nice chaps too. Still can't help but think Sachin is better because he averages a bit more and has scored just 70 test runs less in 14 less innings.

It seems to me Lara's only superiority is hitting the occasional unbelievably massive score.
 

Jason_M

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Lara is a strokeplayer whereas Afridi is a slogger, surely you can see the difference there?

The only thing Sachin does better than Lara with a bat in hand is the straight drives.
 

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