• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Where does Lara rate?

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Jason_M said:
Somebody summed it up perfectly earlier in this discussion when he said that the Aussies fear Lara more
Australians may 'fear' Lara over Tendulkar and all other batsman, seeing as his ability to take the game away from them is second to none when he's set... but McGrath, Warne, Waugh and others rate Tendulkar above Lara in terms of who is the better player. In the end that's what this debate (pointless as it is) is about. Not who is more feared or more dangerous.
 
Last edited:

C_C

International Captain
Jason_M said:
The only thing Sachin does better than Lara with a bat in hand is the straight drives.
And bat against pace bowlers, and adapt to away conditions and bat better against superior opposition and play on the legside better and ............
 

Slifer

International Captain
donwasaverage said:
And both of them such fabulously nice chaps too. Still can't help but think Sachin is better because he averages a bit more and has scored just 70 test runs less in 14 less innings.

It seems to me Lara's only superiority is hitting the occasional unbelievably massive score.

Get ur stats straight the diff is closer to 1000 runs not 70.
 

Jason_M

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
"And bat against pace bowlers, and adapt to away conditions and bat better against superior opposition and play on the legside better and ............"

You don't score 11,000 runs and have trouble against quality pace attacks, Sachin has been sorted out by Allan Donald a couple of times and always had trouble playing South Africa, and he's never dominated the Aussie attack of McGrath and Gillespie (McGrath has even said so himself). Both players have had tussles against quality bowlers throughout their careers where sometimes they've got on top and others where the bowlers won the battle, that's cricket.

"Sachin adapts to away conditions better" Quite the opposite, he is much less effective away from home, Lara retains his genius everywhere.

"bats better against superior opposition"

This is where most will disagree with you as Lara is the one who rises to the occasion against the big teams where Sachin tends to go missing. That's the perception and i agree with it from what i've seen of the two. There is not one batsmen in the world today that could've done what Lara did single handedly in '99.

"plays on the leg side better"

Its hard to compare a right and left hander in this aspect, Tendulkar has great wrists but Lara being a left hander is very effective off his pads as well. As for other shots on the leg side its all Lara.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Jason_M said:
You don't score 11,000 runs and have trouble against quality pace attacks, Sachin has been sorted out by Allan Donald a couple of times and always had trouble playing South Africa.
Lara has an average of 37.67 against India in 21 innings with only one century. Does that mean he's not a good player against spin? Of course not. The same goes with Sachin vs. SA.
 

C_C

International Captain
You don't score 11,000 runs and have trouble against quality pace attacks, Sachin has been sorted out by Allan Donald a couple of times and always had trouble playing South Africa, and he's never dominated the Aussie attack of McGrath and Gillespie (McGrath has even said so himself). Both players have had tussles against quality bowlers throughout their careers where sometimes they've got on top and others where the bowlers won the battle, that's cricket.
The objective of the player is to perform as often as one can- which is why Tendulkar in his prototypical consistency outweighs lara's tendancy to score massively one innings and zilch the next few.
Tendulkar has had less trouble than Lara against Donald - Donald has himself said so and their records show so.
While Tendulkar hasnt had a monster series against McGrath and Gillespie, he hasnt has nearly as many dismal failures as Lara has and averages more against McGrath-Gillespie than Lara does.
Tendulkar also hasnt been at the receiving end of spells by fast bowlers where he's looked clueless- Lara has looked clueless several times, being comprehensively worked over by Lee, Akhtar, McGrath,Donald, Akram, etc.
Tendulkar also has a better record playing Wasim and Waqar.
Plus Tendulkar has handled Ambrose and Walsh comfortably- nobody in their right mind can say that Lara is a better player of pace than Tendulkar is.

Quite the opposite, he is much less effective away from home, Lara retains his genius everywhere.
Which is why Tendulkar averages more than Lara in Australia, England, Pakistan and Sri Lanka and the only places where Lara is ahead of Tendulkar ( while keeping WI and IND out of the way- it is obvious that Lara is better than Tendy in the WI while Tendy is better than Lara at home, owing to familiarity of conditions) is South Africa and New Zealand.

So how is Lara more effective away from home again ?

This is where most will disagree with you as Lara is the one who rises to the occasion against the big teams where Sachin tends to go missing. That's the perception and i agree with it from what i've seen of the two. There is not one batsmen in the world today that could've done what Lara did single handedly in '99.
And one innings doesnt define batsmanship, otherwise Lawrence Rowe is easily better than Viv Richards,Alan Border, Lara, Tendulkar, etc. Effectiveness is measured cumulatively- how effective you've been overall against them. Tendulkar averages more against top notch competition as well as in their backyards and thus is more effective against top-notch bowling. Lara against quality opposition away from home has mostly been like this series of OZ - series of failures, redeemed by one solitary occasion.

Its hard to compare a right and left hander in this aspect, Tendulkar has great wrists but Lara being a left hander is very effective off his pads as well. As for other shots on the leg side its all Lara.
Tendulkar is easily a better puller and hook shot player than Lara is. He also flicks and leg glances far superior to anything Lara comes up with. Lara sweeps much better and leg drives better than Tendulkar does.


Anyways, i am reluctant to continue this conversation as it gets nowhere and my understanding of the game is different than most people's.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Autobahn said:
It's just like a fight at a statisticians convention :p
word. I am a processor and even I haven't seen so many numbers in a single day's work as we are now seeing between WI fan and CC.. :D
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
C_C said:
All the 'carries the batting lineup' is largely irrelevant and misleading interpretation of statistics.

You could insert Stuart Williams in a team with my granny, your granny and eight other grannies and have Bradman in the current OZ lineup and guess what ? Stuey will score a higher % of runs than Bradman would....sure means a lot, eh ?
8-)
You know CC, it WOULD matter if Stuey Williams scored 50 out 60 made by the team against the current Australian bowling line up. A 50 against this Aussie side is worth a hundred against some of the other teams.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
C_C said:
Utter bullcrap.
First, Bradman is the greatest batsman of alltime, not BCL.
Second, Lara is clearly the second best to Sachin against Quality attacks.

Australia's quality attack is essentially composed of McGrath + Warne.
And while against McGrath and Warne, Lara is marginally better ( marginally- their averages are within 2 points of each other), Lara doesnt hold a candle to Tendulkar in australia.
Overall, in australia Lara averages a measley 41.97 to 54.15 to Tendulkar's.
If you bring in their averages against Australian attack of fame- McWarne- in australia, Lara's average drops to 37.14 while Tendulkar's drops to 46.33

South Africa were a quality attack before Donald retired ( this is evidenced by the decimation of many a batting lineup by Donald-Pollock through the 90s and early 2000s).

Against them, Lara averages 35.95, Tendulkar averages 34.31 but his average in South Africa against those is significantly superior to that of Lara's - 36.91 to 31.00

Pakistan's bowling attack was excellent when Wasim-Waqar were around.
Against them, Tendulkar averages 38.60 while Lara averages 30.30. In Pakistan against those bowlers, Tendulkar averages 35.83 while Lara averages 22.25.

Against Sri Lanka ( and Murali), both have exemplary records.

Infact, Lara has been one of the prime benificiaries with the flattening of the pitches in the last 5 years and the drop in bowling quality- he's heaped on the runs against South Africa and a sub-standard Pakistan and anyone who's watched Lara knows that serious fast bowling ( of the excellent type, not mediocre type) gives him a lot of trouble - he was clueless against Wasim even in his glory days ( much more so than Tendulkar, Tugga and co.) and he's struggled mightily against Donald- something Donald flat out says.
Despite the flatter pitches, bowlers like Brett Lee ( the Trinidad spell), Akhtar ( conked him in the head first ball and for a moment it looked real bad for Lara), Harmison ( in the WI last year), etc. have all given him tremendous problems.

Tendulkar hasn't capitalised that much on the significant drop in bowling quality- part owing to him not being in his stunning form and part due to his injury worries.

While Lara has more runs against South Africa + Pakistan + Australia + England, a cursory glance reveals that he's also played a lot more than Tendulkar against them.
However, it is abundantly clear that against quality attacks in their career, Tendulkar has been generally more successful than Lara.
Add to the fact that Lara never had to face Ambrose and Walsh in Test cricket ( who've given him quite a hard time in domestic competitions) and Tendulkar averages 57+ against them. Also add to the fact that Kumble + Srinath is no way equal to Ambrose + Walsh in terms of challenge posed to the batsmen.
Then throw in the fact that Tendulkar has faced more quality opposition in his career than Lara - he's played bowlers like Hadlee, Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop, the ones who can all be genuinely called alltime greats or at the very least, world class, who Lara's never had to face. The only world class/great bowler Tendy has never faced but Lara has is Kumble.

Throw in the fact that tendulkar is considerably superior to Lara away from home- this is important since its more demanding ( both skill-wise and pressure-wise) to do well in the opposition's backyard than in your own.
Lara's away average is 47.25, Tendulkar's is 56.58. Drop out Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, Tendulkar's away average is 55.58 while Lara's is 46.94.

Lara is flashier than Tendulkar - but i would rather watch Tendulkar at his best than Lara at his best- simply because while Tendulkar at his best is just a shade less aggressive than Lara, he looks much more solid than Lara does.
Add the fact that Tendulkar faces incredible pressure of expectation- 1 billion+ fans compared to 10-odd million for Lara and the media pressure just pales into comparison- this aspect has been commented on by many many cricketers in the past and if you think this doesnt make any difference, try representing your highschool in a sport and then try representing your city in a sport.

Lara's forte has been dazzling displays of brilliance amid extended periods of mediocrity. ( his one shining series vs OZ in 99 is pretty much the only successful series he's had in the 5 year span between 96 and 2001, him typically failing in all but one innings of a series to pull his average up- this series vs OZ and the last series vs ENG in the caribbean being perfect examples)
Whereas for Tendulkar, his forte has been contributing to the team's batting much more frequently in a dominant/excellent fashion.

On top of all that, add the fact that Tendulkar is 4 years younger than Lara and if he ends up playing to the same age as Lara, he will most definately go past Lara's total of runs and centuries( already ahead of it).
Simply speaking, while Lara is a great batsman in his own right, one who performs more often is simply the better player- because the job of a player is to contribute as frequently as possible.
And in this respect and against quality opposition, Tendulkar wins clearly.

Therefore, it is quite ludicrous to argue that Lara is definately better than Tendulkar, when objectively speaking, he is, at best, his equal.

Anyways, i've debated this topic to death and therefore, i am not gonna comment further on it anytime soon.
CC, I am not sure Sachin averages any higher against McGrath and Warne IN Australia... Surely, the 248* and the 60* have to be taken off, as also the scores before that, because that was the worst Aussie attack in the last 15 years....
 

ryan563

Cricket Spectator
i think lara is as good as tendulker but against certain opponents they are each better than eachother
 

C_C

International Captain
honestbharani said:
CC, I am not sure Sachin averages any higher against McGrath and Warne IN Australia... Surely, the 248* and the 60* have to be taken off, as also the scores before that, because that was the worst Aussie attack in the last 15 years....
Actually he does average significantly more than Lara vs McGrath and Warne in OZ- its approx 46 plus change while Lara's is in mid-high 30s range.
 

Slifer

International Captain
ryan563 said:
i think lara is as good as tendulker but against certain opponents they are each better than eachother

Very true but overall SRT is slightly better
 

ohtani's jacket

State Vice-Captain
Lara has a far better record against SA than Tendulkar.

Lara averages 49.00 against SA, with 4 centuries and 9 half-centuries. His average *in* South Africa is 46.72, with 2 centuries and 5 fifties.

Tendulkar averages 37.14 against SA, with 3 centuries and 3 half-centuries. His average in South Africa is 42.40, with 3 centuries and 1 fifty.

Donald has dismissed Lara six times with an average per dismissal of 31.00. He's dismissed Tendulkar five times, with an average score of 12.00.

Pollock has dismissed Lara 3 times at an average of 32.33 & Tendulkar twice for an average of 2.5. That's right -- two and a half runs.

Even the numbers against Australia are misleading -- Lara averages 41.40 per dismissal against McGrath and 54.57 against Warne. Tendulkar averages 22.16 before he's dismissed by McGrath and 39.00 against Warne.
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
^Those avereages mean nothing at all, because they only take into account innings where the bowler in question dismissed SRT/BCL. It doesn't take into account something like if SRT made 150 against Donald/Pollock etc and was dismissed eventually by someone like Ntini...
 

C_C

International Captain
ohtani's jacket said:
Lara has a far better record against SA than Tendulkar.

Lara averages 49.00 against SA, with 4 centuries and 9 half-centuries. His average *in* South Africa is 46.72, with 2 centuries and 5 fifties.

Tendulkar averages 37.14 against SA, with 3 centuries and 3 half-centuries. His average in South Africa is 42.40, with 3 centuries and 1 fifty.

Donald has dismissed Lara six times with an average per dismissal of 31.00. He's dismissed Tendulkar five times, with an average score of 12.00.

Pollock has dismissed Lara 3 times at an average of 32.33 & Tendulkar twice for an average of 2.5. That's right -- two and a half runs.

Even the numbers against Australia are misleading -- Lara averages 41.40 per dismissal against McGrath and 54.57 against Warne. Tendulkar averages 22.16 before he's dismissed by McGrath and 39.00 against Warne.

Yeah. Lara massively upped his average in RSA after Donald retired. During Donald's heydeys, he was averaging in the early 30s.

As per average per dismissal, that is the most misinterpreted statistic there is in cricket.
All it means is the average score at which you were dismissed by the said bowler.
To cut it short, If i am the batsman and you are in the bowling team, assuming you dismissed me every time in a 5 innings sequence of 400*,200*,0,2,188* and 1, my average against you is (0+2+1)/3 = 1.00
Now, if the situation is reversed and you make 14,36,30,20 and 50, your average against me( where i am the bowler and you are the batsman) is ( 14+36+30+20+50)/5 = 30.00

In another scenario, lets say you dismissed me in the 4th inning of that sequence( for 2 runs) and your buddies dismissed me for 0 and 1, my average against you is 2.00
Now, lets say i dismissed you only once for that 50, your average against me is 50.00

And if you consider the latter string of scores to be superior to the former, you are on your own.
 

Slifer

International Captain
I have 2 questions to ask u mr CC do u actually consider BCL to be better than SRT at anything? Or does SRT just beat BCL conclusively in all the parameters than u use to measure a great batsman?
 

howardj

International Coach
Slifer said:
I have 2 questions to ask u mr CC do u actually consider BCL to be better than SRT at anything?
On his day, he's a marginally better left-handed batsman than SRT - though Lara, as a left-hander, has never had to face Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop and Co. :p
 

Top