Where does Dale Steyn stack up historically

[TheJediBrah]

C'mon mate. It's a toss up at that level. Actually, having a stong inclination either way would reveal a bias, if anything.

no there's a fair gap between the 2. Steyn averaging 29 against the top 7 teams over his career is pretty decisive

 

[Prince EWS]

no there's a fair gap between the 2. Steyn averaging 29 against the top 7 teams over his career is pretty decisive

That was against batsmen in the top seven, not top seven teams, and tbh I'm not sure how anyone even has that stat as it's not available on cricinfo.

Against top seven teams he averaged 24.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Not to take the attention away from Steyn, but how often does his countryman Allan Donald get overlooked in these threads? Donald was phenomenal.

Agree completely. Steyn was incredible and I don't by any means mean to devalue his achievements but those saying Steyn is easily the best are rather selling Donald short imo. Superb bowler, absolutely should be in the discussion regarding ATG pacers

 

[TheJediBrah]

That was against batsmen in the top seven, not top seven teams, and tbh I'm not sure how anyone even has that stat as it's not available on cricinfo.

Against top seven teams he averaged 24.

whelp that's my bad

stat still serves the same purpose though. It's a pretty huge difference. If anything it's probably even more telling.

 

[trundler]

Someone needs to double check it tho. One time I thought I had discovered some groundbreaking stat but was just reading the wrong column, lol.

 

[Slifer]

Agree completely. Steyn was incredible and I don't by any means mean to devalue his achievements but those saying Steyn is easily the best are rather selling Donald short imo. Superb bowler, absolutely should be in the discussion regarding ATG pacers

This

 

[TheJediBrah]

Someone needs to double check it tho. One time I thought I had discovered some groundbreaking stat but was just reading the wrong column, lol.

I'd also like to know their averages against 8-11. If Steyn has a much better average against the tail than McGrath, it would go someway to making up for the difference against top 7 batsmen.

The more I think about it the stat of Steyn averaging 29 against top 7 doesn't seem right. He'd have to average like 5 against tailenders to get to where his career average is

 

[ankitj]

whelp that's my bad

stat still serves the same purpose though. It's a pretty huge difference. If anything it's probably even more telling.

Average against top 7 batsmen is not available on cricinfo or anywhere. What they publish is erroneous and garbage.

 

[ankitj]

Steyn averages around 29 against top 7 while McGrath(since 2002) averages around 23. As you pointed out Steyn has a better strike rate against top 7 than McGrath (53 vs 58).

Pretty sure these stats are wrong.

 

[ankitj]

A killer Steyn stat. More 5 wicket hauls in victories than any pace bowler in history.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Hadlee's numbers there, **** me

This is where I point out (yet again) that average in wins means nothing. You win more games against weaker teams and in favourable conditions e.g. home tests. So you are oversampling easier conditions and oppositions with average in wins. Also if you are the only good player surrounded by mediocrity, your team almost never wins when you don't do well so your failures are under sampled. Hence Kumble has a better bowling average in wins than Warne. In any case result of the match is not a condition that applies when players are bowling or batting (unlike nature of pitch) and hence cannot influence performance.

 

[CricAddict]

The top 5 players in any ATG ranking will all be equally good unless you are Bradman. Steyn is top 5 for me, so as good as 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.

 

[h_hurricane]

This is where I point out (yet again) that average in wins means nothing. You win more games against weaker teams and in favourable conditions e.g. home tests. So you are oversampling easier conditions and oppositions with average in wins. Also if you are the only good player surrounded by mediocrity, your team almost never wins when you don't do well so your failures are under sampled. Hence Kumble has a better bowling average in wins than Warne. In any case result of the match is not a condition that applies when players are bowling or batting (unlike nature of pitch) and hence cannot influence performance.

I completely get your point. Averages in wins undersell great players from ATG teams like Viv, Marshall, Mcgrath etc as these teams would win in many occasions even when these players are not performing. These were absolute numbers though. 22 5 wicket hauls in victories is still bloody impressive. Steyn and Hadlee didn't have long careers like Anderson for instance.

 

[h_hurricane]

Steyn averages around 29 against top 7 while McGrath(since 2002) averages around 23. As you pointed out Steyn has a better strike rate against top 7 than McGrath (53 vs 58).

How do we get this information ? Unless ball by ball analysis is available for a good part of 2 decades. I am sure Mcgrath was better than Steyn in this metric, but doubt by the extent what it says.

 

[Daemon]

I've subscribed to CricViz and Steyn averaged 24 against the top 7 and McGrath averaged 36.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I've subscribed to CricViz and Steyn averaged 24 against the top 7 and McGrath averaged 36.

I subscribed last week and says that Daemon's posts are worse than his face

 

[Logan]

Both McGrath and Steyn are ATG bowlers. They are arguably among Top 3 Test bowlers of all time.

 

[Bolo]

I completely get your point. Averages in wins undersell great players from ATG teams like Viv, Marshall, Mcgrath etc as these teams would win in many occasions even when these players are not performing. These were absolute numbers though. 22 5 wicket hauls in victories is still bloody impressive. Steyn and Hadlee didn't have long careers like Anderson for instance.

I'm no fan of stats in wins or 5 wicket hauls as measures.

Sure felt like Steyn turned a lot of matches and series with spells out of nowhere when nobody else would have been able to get the job done though.

 

[Bahnz]

Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath and Imran are the only ones I'd definitely rate above him. Wasim, Trueman, Lillee, Holding and Ambrose are on a similar plain.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Not to take the attention away from Steyn, but how often does his countryman Allan Donald get overlooked in these threads? Donald was phenomenal.

Donald generally under rated both in tests and ODis.

Barnes , Akram , Hadlee , Marshall , McGrath, Lillee , Steyn , Trueman . My top 8 .
Donald and Imran completes top 10.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This is where I point out (yet again) that average in wins means nothing. You win more games against weaker teams and in favourable conditions e.g. home tests. So you are oversampling easier conditions and oppositions with average in wins. Also if you are the only good player surrounded by mediocrity, your team almost never wins when you don't do well so your failures are under sampled. Hence Kumble has a better bowling average in wins than Warne. In any case result of the match is not a condition that applies when players are bowling or batting (unlike nature of pitch) and hence cannot influence performance.

I'm no fan of stats in wins or 5 wicket hauls as measures.

Sure felt like Steyn turned a lot of matches and series with spells out of nowhere when nobody else would have been able to get the job done though.

I don't think anyone's using it as a real measure though. It's just an interesting stat that can tell a story about a player, their team and the relation between them. No one's claiming that it's a decisive measure of how good a player is.