What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests?

[watson]

Harold Larwood - Ave = 19.40, Top Score = 98
John Snow - Ave = 13.54, Top Score = 73
Fred Trueman - Ave = 13.82, Top Score = 39
Sydney Barnes - Ave = 8.07, Top Score = 38

Quibbling about silly batting averages aside - I really like that attack.

 

[kyear2]

So no true spinner?

 

[viriya]

Get your stats right boi

my bad accidentally took innings to be tests.. still, average isn't anything special. Obviously I haven't seen him bowl, but even if he spun the ball more than Grimmett what matters is the wickets - not how you got them.

 

[watson]

So no true spinner?

There's been enough discovered and written about Barnes to suggest that he applied sideways spin to the ball, and therefore could exploit any wicket with turn in it;

Of him more than any other bowler could we forgive that abused cliche: he was the most complete bowler that ever lived. The truth of that view justifies its ubiquity. Though unconventional by modern standards, and though he bounded off a long kangaroo-like run-up, he was above all a spinner, a Twirlyman, one of us.

Twirlymen: The Unlikely History of Cricket's Greatest Spin Bowlers. By Amol Rajan

If O'Reilly can picked as the lone spinner in an Australian side, then I don't see why Barnes can't be picked as the lone spinner in an England side. After all, they bowled at about the same pace by all accounts.

 

[bagapath]

There's been enough discovered and written about Barnes to suggest that he applied sideways spin to the ball, and therefore could exploit any wicket with turn in it;



If O'Reilly can picked as the lone spinner in an Australian side, then I don't see why Barnes can't be picked as the lone spinner in an England side. After all, they bowled at about the same pace by all accounts.

I know what you mean. but it is not possible to be effective with the new ball unless you operated above medium pace. Barnes always took the new ball. he could have been as fast as kapil dev and bedser, a few clicks above kumble/O'Reilly. I don't have any "proof" with me. but this is my honest assumption.

 

[harsh.ag]

If a spinner is to be taken, then please neither of Laker (home track bully) or Underwood (similar style to Barnes). My pick would be Verity. Gives nice variation.

 

[kyear2]

I know what you mean. but it is not possible to be effective with the new ball unless you operated above medium pace. Barnes always took the new ball. he could have been as fast as kapil dev and bedser, a few clicks above kumble/O'Reilly. I don't have any "proof" with me. but this is my honest assumption.

From everything I have read he was distinctly faster than O'Reilly and on the hard pitches of Australia was easily fast medium.

 

[kyear2]

If a spinner is to be taken, then please neither of Laker (home track bully) or Underwood (similar style to Barnes). My pick would be Verity. Gives nice variation.

Verity had a strike rate of 83 vs Australia and over 100 vs S.A., more or less made hay versus India. Underwood though, only really struggled against the W.I.

To be honest in my opinion, there has been only three spinners who separated themselves from the rest and are truly top tier. Warne, Muralitharan and O'Reilly.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

There's been enough discovered and written about Barnes to suggest that he applied sideways spin to the ball, and therefore could exploit any wicket with turn in it;



If O'Reilly can picked as the lone spinner in an Australian side, then I don't see why Barnes can't be picked as the lone spinner in an England side. After all, they bowled at about the same pace by all accounts.

Yet someone we know with a very similar style, turner, was known for his sheer pace

 

[watson]

I know what you mean. but it is not possible to be effective with the new ball unless you operated above medium pace. Barnes always took the new ball. he could have been as fast as kapil dev and bedser, a few clicks above kumble/O'Reilly. I don't have any "proof" with me. but this is my honest assumption.

When Barnes opened the bowling it is fair enough to assume that he bowled at about Bedser's pace. That is, less than 120kph. There would be no point in Barnes bowling any faster as it would then not be possible for the spinning ball to either 'swerve' via the Magnus Effect, or to grip the pitch and turn.

From what I've read Barnes apparently varied the amount the ball turned off the pitch by varying the pace of his delivery. If conditions suited swing for example, or if the pitch was flat, then he would increase his pace and rely more on 'swerve' via the Magnus Effect to take wickets.

But if the pitch accepted spin then he would decrease his pace and allow his leg-spinner to grip the pitch better and therefore turn more. Barnes would rely on a combination of 'swerve' and conventional turn off the pitch to take wickets. In this mode he can be reliably compared to O'Reilly.

 

[watson]

Yet someone we know with a very similar style, turner, was known for his sheer pace

Turner never was a fast bowler like Cotter, and he was never known for his sheer pace.

Sporting Life once wrote a typical Turner victim had been "skittled by a sonnet", reflecting the opinion of England captain Archie MacLaren, who described Turner's bowling as "poetry in motion".

Sir Stanley Jackson, another England captain and an excellent judge, wrote in Wisden, "I always regarded Charles Turner as the best medium-paced bowler I ever played against."

In Australia, for most of his first-class playing career, Turner was compared to Fred Spofforth, Australia's first great bowler. Australian opening batsman Alec Bannerman, who played with both, reckoned Turner "could turn the ball on a good wicket better than Spofforth and for this reason met with more success on Australian wickets, and equally as great success on English ones".

In 33 Years of Cricket Frank Iredale argued that Charlie faced a "harder task" than Spofforth, with fewer rabbits to bowl against, and improved wickets due to the liberal use of Bulli soil in Australia. Iredale concluded that "on all wickets, good and bad, and on English and Australian, Turner was the greatest bowler we ever produced".

Turner opened the bowling, delivering right-arm medium-pace with a low, square-on action off about seven yards. In 1888, at the Woolwich Arsenal, his delivery speed was measured at 55mph. He described himself as a fingerspinner, and was renowned for being able to bring the ball back sharply into a right-hand batsman. His great variety - his yorker was a feared delivery - was his strength.

He may have bowled like an English professional, but Turner batted like an Australian amateur. A dasher, he only scored two first-class centuries, but was good enough to open for Australia on occasion.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/603210.html

Quiet, gentle and dignified, Turner stood just under 5 ft 9 ins (175 cm) and was sturdily built. His appearance, demeanour and action belied his nickname; 'with a sudden swing around', wrote the English captain A. C. Maclaren, 'he would come tripping up to the wicket in the most cheery and at the same time graceful manner imaginable'. He stood squarer to the batsman at the moment of delivery than most classical bowlers, relying on accuracy and change of pace. His stock ball was a medium-paced sharply turning off-break which he mixed with yorkers, leg-cutters and top-spinners; his lift and pace from the pitch were renowned. A courageous and tireless mainstay of the Australian attack at a time when the batting was weak, he was the first of the great modern medium-pacers, and one of the best bowlers of all time on helpful wickets. In 17 Test matches against England he took 101 wickets at 16, including 5 or more wickets in an innings 11 times; in all first-class matches he took 992 wickets at 14. His average of 7.68 in 1886-87 and aggregate of 106 in 1887-88 are Australian records that have seldom been approached. A free-hitting batsman, he scored a century against Surrey in 1888 that lived in the memory of Ranjitsinhji, and twice opened the innings in the 1890 Tests.

http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/turner-charles-thomas-biass-4759

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Turner never was a fast bowler like Cotter, and he was never known for his sheer pace.

hmm going to have to go back and try to find a couple of sources.

 

[NUFAN]

Well if someone thinks Stanley Jackson is an excellent judge I guess I must trust every single thing he said.

 

[watson]

A bowler who comes 'tripping up to the wicket' with a run-up of 'about seven yards' is likely to be 'medium paced bowler' as Stanley Jackson suggests.

 

[the big bambino]

Verity had a strike rate of 83 vs Australia and over 100 vs S.A., more or less made hay versus India. Underwood though, only really struggled against the W.I.

To be honest in my opinion, there has been only three spinners who separated themselves from the rest and are truly top tier. Warne, Muralitharan and O'Reilly.

Personally I think SR to be an over rated stat. Time is the important thing and since spinners bowl their overs quicker they can afford a higher SR. Verity's SR v Aus is simply a function of having to bowl at Bradman and I wouldn't read anything into the stat v SA as the pitches in the last series before the war were the 5 easiest roads ever produced and he actually bowled well on them. As a bowler he's par with Underwood but offers more on the batting.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

A bowler who comes 'tripping up to the wicket' with a run-up of 'about seven yards' is likely to be 'medium paced bowler' as Stanley Jackson suggests.

I distinctly remember reading in several places about his ferocious pace, but can't find anything now so maybe i was just imagining it

 

[NUFAN]

A bowler who comes 'tripping up to the wicket' with a run-up of 'about seven yards' is likely to be 'medium paced bowler' as Stanley Jackson suggests.

Please show me where Stanley Jackson writes this..

 

[watson]

Personally I think SR to be an over rated stat. Time is the important thing and since spinners bowl their overs quicker they can afford a higher SR. Verity's SR v Aus is simply a function of having to bowl at Bradman and I wouldn't read anything into the stat v SA as the pitches in the last series before the war were the 5 easiest roads ever produced and he actually bowled well on them. As a bowler he's par with Underwood but offers more on the batting.

Nice points Bambi.

Also, the 1936/37 Ashes series was easily Verity's worst series - 10 wickets at 45 runs a piece during 5 Tests is not a good look.

However, Bradman remarked of Verity that he was a bowler 'with no breaking point' for good reason. So even though Verity was obviously out of form he maintained a miserly Economy Rate of just 1.74, and claimed Bradman's wicket 3 times in the series. England did lose a tight Ashes contest 3-2 but I don't think that Verity had much to do with the loss.

Just a word about Strike Rate. It is an important measure of a bowlers skill but has less to do with winning Test matches than the bowler's Average. This is because a team can only win a Test match if they score more total runs than the other team. For example, if a Test match is is won by a dozen runs or so then Bowler A who has takes 10/150 for the match with a Strike Rate of 62 balls is far more important in pure mathmatical terms than Bowler B who takes 10/200 for the match, but has a superb Strike Rate of 36 balls.

 

[watson]

Please show me where Stanley Jackson writes this..

The quote was cited in an essay written by Ric Sissons who is probably cricket's foremost authority on Charles Turner. Perhaps you can ask him where he got Jackson's opinion from?

I haven't found anything yet to suggest that Turner bowled fast by any definition of the word fast. Others might be able to, but I haven't. I think the confusion comes about because of his nickname 'Terror'. But this name was born because of his vicious 'breakback', not his pace - apparently.

 

[the big bambino]

I read somewhere (can't remember where so don't ask) that Turner's bowling speed was actually measured at 55mph. I don't know how accurate measurements were in the day but from all accounts Turner was a medium pacer and nothing like the speed of the likes of Richardson, Lockwood, Mold, Kortright etc.