Wastemen etc

[Daemon]

Stokes has a piss poor T20 record, especially with the ball. One of those dudes who you think would be perfect for the format but actually prefers the longer versions.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

That's a pretty big mis-step though. All the bemoaning in the world of his limited opportunities rings pretty hollow when he just decided not to bother playing possibly the toughest away tour Bangladesh have. Wipes away any credit he had with that one action IMO

I feel the same way about Lillee missing Asian tours. Greg Chappel too.

So if anything is a mis-setp, it is probably wiping away "any credit" with one action

If we start dismissing players for missing a tour or games outside of injury, there's going to be a lot of greats crossed off.

 

[NZTailender]

Albie Morkel and Andre Adams

 

[Borges]

Tendulkar. AB too.

 

[cnerd123]

I feel the same way about Lillee missing Asian tours. Greg Chappel too.

So if anything is a mis-setp, it is probably wiping away "any credit" with one action

If we start dismissing players for missing a tour or games outside of injury, there's going to be a lot of greats crossed off.

I think we can assess players missing tours on a case by case basis

Several of the older generation of Australian/English missing Asia tours can often be forgiven. Put yourself in their shoes - you travel all the way to Asia with pretty uncomfortable travel arrangements, stay in relatively uncomfortable accommodation, have to deal with food and climate that doesn't suit you, put up with poor logistics, umpires, administration, security, and all to play a relatively weaker team that doesn't add to your legacy, in conditions that are hot and flat and not enjoyable, while getting paid a paltry sum of money. Is all that struggle and time away from family really worth it, when you could instead take some time off, or play some cricket for your local club/state/county team, or work on your game?

Shakib's case for missing the SA tour does have some caveats - for instance, he had a crazy hard schedule leading up to that tour with a lot of cricket that required his participation, the Aus and Eng tours would have been very emotionally draining, he had been asking for time off for 6 months (or 1 year?) and wasn't being given the option to skip any cricket, until finally the BCB says he can miss the SA Tests if he comes back for the ODIs. Offered that, what does Shakib take?

I still personally would have had more respect for him if he took on that challenge and played the Tests, and the ODIs, and just skipped the IPL - but the man's gotta earn some money. He's been such a great servant for BD cricket for so long, he deserves a chance to cash in on it. So when you take all that into consideration...it's not great he missed the SA Tests, but you can sympathise a bit. It doesn't earn as much sympathy as the older gen of cricketers missing Asia tours though, that's for sure.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I think we can assess players missing tours on a case by case basis

Several of the older generation of Australian/English missing Asia tours can often be forgiven. Put yourself in their shoes - you travel all the way to Asia with pretty uncomfortable travel arrangements, stay in relatively uncomfortable accommodation, have to deal with food and climate that doesn't suit you, put up with poor logistics, umpires, administration, security, and all to play a relatively weaker team that doesn't add to your legacy, in conditions that are hot and flat and not enjoyable, while getting paid a paltry sum of money. Is all that struggle and time away from family really worth it, when you could instead take some time off, or play some cricket for your local club/state/county team, or work on your game?

Shakib's case for missing the SA tour does have some caveats - for instance, he had a crazy hard schedule leading up to that tour with a lot of cricket that required his participation, the Aus and Eng tours would have been very emotionally draining, he had been asking for time off for 6 months (or 1 year?) and wasn't being given the option to skip any cricket, until finally the BCB says he can miss the SA Tests if he comes back for the ODIs. Offered that, what does Shakib take?

I still personally would have had more respect for him if he took on that challenge and played the Tests, and the ODIs, and just skipped the IPL - but the man's gotta earn some money. He's been such a great servant for BD cricket for so long, he deserves a chance to cash in on it. So when you take all that into consideration...it's not great he missed the SA Tests, but you can sympathise a bit. It doesn't earn as much sympathy as the older gen of cricketers missing Asia tours though, that's for sure.

I agree with your comments on Shakib's case personally. But I'm not entirely convinced about giving the past players more sympathy when they had many more breaks in the cricket schedule for their off season. Like you say, it is better to go case by case, and not just generalise. Which I agree with.

NZC had a player by the name of JF Reid, a batsman who just happened to be unavailable whenever NZ was due to play the West Indies, home or away. Now his is a case that gets less respect from many despite Reid stating he was putting his teaching career first. If you look at his profile, I remind you that WI toured NZ in 1979/80 and 1986/87 and NZ went there in 1984/85 yet he geared up for Sri Lanka and Pakistan in 1984. All up - he only played one ODI game vs WI and not a single test match.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/38246.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

So I agree, case by case basis makes more sense.

 

[Red]

When I first saw Albie Morkel in ODIs I thought he was going to be an out and out gun in that format. And it looked like it'd transfer to tests also.

 

[Red]

I guess Albie Morkel wasn't a good enough bowler to be one of the 4 bowlers in a test on a long term basis, and then when you've already got Kallis in the top 6 you hardly need him as a 5th bowling option who bats at 6.

Always liked all rounders though. Guys like Sam Loxton make for interesting characters to research.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

When I first saw Albie Morkel in ODIs I thought he was going to be an out and out gun in that format. And it looked like it'd transfer to tests also.

Was Botha given a fair go in the test team? Post Adams and Boje and pre Tahir? Seems like Paul Harris got a lot more tests.

 

[Red]

Was Botha given a fair go in the test team? Post Adams and Boje and pre Tahir?

Yeh it's surprising for a country that has struggled to produce spinners that Botha wasn't persisted with more in tests. Handy batsman also, who was captaining South Australia a few years ago and was good enough to bat at 6 or 7 in FC cricket.

 

[cnerd123]

I think Botha's dodgy action was to blame tbh

 

[Dendarii]

I guess Albie Morkel wasn't a good enough bowler to be one of the 4 bowlers in a test on a long term basis, and then when you've already got Kallis in the top 6 you hardly need him as a 5th bowling option who bats at 6.

Pretty much. He averaged 30 with the ball in first-class cricket, which was never going to be good enough to be selected on his bowling alone given the calibre of the other South African quicks. And while he had a very resectable first-class batting average of 44, having the likes of Kallis, De Villiers,and Amla around meant that his batting wasn't quite good enough to make the team either. And as you said, Kallis rendered a second all-rounder surplus to requirements, especially with Pollock there for a while too.

Any other country or any other era of South African cricket and Morkel would have walked into the team. He just had the bad luck of playing at the same time as an ATG.

 

[Dendarii]

Yeh it's surprising for a country that has struggled to produce spinners that Botha wasn't persisted with more in tests. Handy batsman also, who was captaining South Australia a few years ago and was good enough to bat at 6 or 7 in FC cricket.

I think initially Botha was seen as more of a limited overs specialist, while Harris got the nod as the test spinner and did a good enough job that there wasn't a compelling reason to pick Botha.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I feel the same way about Lillee missing Asian tours. Greg Chappel too.

So if anything is a mis-setp, it is probably wiping away "any credit" with one action

If we start dismissing players for missing a tour or games outside of injury, there's going to be a lot of greats crossed off.

Not even in the same ballpark. Things were very different back then, for many reasons, and while I wouldn't really want to go to South Africa the country if I didn't really have to, the facilities and state of living is still a lot better than what you'd get in Asia. Especially back in the 70s. You'd have to pay me a lot to stay in India or Sri Lanka or (god forbid) Pakistan for weeks on end.

I think initially Botha was seen as more of a limited overs specialist, while Harris got the nod as the test spinner and did a good enough job that there wasn't a compelling reason to pick Botha.

That and Botha is, and always has been, a clear chucker. If he was selected more often he would have just gotten caught out and banned quicker

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Jos Buttler not given a fair go at test match level, if England selectors dont wake up and see how good this guy is he gonna go down a wasted talent not to play enough 5 day cricket.

Talking out of your arse, he failed miserably in 5 day cricket and doesn't play first class cricket now anyway. Would you pick him ahead of Bairstow?

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Not even in the same ballpark. Things were very different back then, for many reasons, and while I wouldn't really want to go to South Africa the country if I didn't really have to, the facilities and state of living is still a lot better than what you'd get in Asia. Especially back in the 70s. You'd have to pay me a lot to stay in India or Sri Lanka or (god forbid) Pakistan for weeks on end.[/b[

What are the many reasons? If it is money, which is the only one you identify - we all know like many players of the non Big 3 nations that Shakib earns more playing T20 than he does internationals, unlike Lilllee or Chappel. Shakib earned over 700k last year on t20 domestic tournaments. Is money your only reason? Because it does not persuade me. In fact, quite the opposite, as I think you're only supporting *****'s counter view to yours, that is Shakib oft plays for money and earns a living.

So I'd love to know what these reasons are. Chappell reportedly persued business interests in missing tours, what did Lillee do? Yes, it is relevant Took a breather and put his feet up? - Isn' tthat exactly what Shakib did having played a lot more on and off season cricket more recently than Lillee in chasing a buck?

Sorry Jedibrah - I am far from persuaded by your argument.

But at least you're now operating on a case by case basis. So tell me why Lillee and Shakib are so different. Given Shakib is playing so much more cricket. Perhaps you will say it is the emotional and physical drain on a fast bowler. But money isn't going to cut it (Shakib already matches Chapell here by your own argument of prioristising money over internationals - which is exactly what Shakib has done by being available for t20 domestic comps everywhere). And if it is the emotional and physical drain - how is that different to Shakib playing more cricket as an allrounder?

Sorry Jedibrah - I think you're onto a loser here. What is good for the Australian goose is good for the Bangladeshi gander, be it money or games played, or both in combination.

If Australian greats are able to miss tours for money reasons, or whatever else, without losing credibility on status, so are Bangladeshi players. Shakib clearly values earning a dollar. He's as fair dinkum in that regard as an Aussie cricketer.

 

[slippy888]

Shocked not to see Mark Alleyne not posted here he was a very good all rounder

 

[slippy888]

Darren Stevens was a destructive batsman and a very good fast medium bowler he not even play 1 international game

 

[TheJediBrah]

What are the many reasons? If it is money, which is the only one you identify - we all know like many players of the non Big 3 nations that Shakib earns more playing T20 than he does internationals, unlike Lilllee or Chappel. Shakib earned over 700k last year on t20 domestic tournaments. Is money your only reason? Because it does not persuade me. In fact, quite the opposite, as I think you're only supporting *****'s counter view to yours, that is Shakib oft plays for money and earns a living.

So I'd love to know what these reasons are. Chappell reportedly persued business interests in missing tours, what did Lillee do? Yes, it is relevant Took a breather and put his feet up - isn' tthat exactly what Shakib did having played a lot more on and off season cricket than Lillee?

Sorry Jedibrah - I am far from persuaded by your argument.

Did you miss the part where Asia is not a nice play to visit? I'm not saying that South Africa is much better, stay there for long enough and getting murdered is basically a statistical certainty, but as a touring sportsman Asia in the 70s doesn't even compare to South Africa in 2017.

And besides money is more than a good enough reason by itself. They would have earned **** all for the tour back then, and I don't know why you bring up Shakib's earnings as if they are somehow relevant. The entire point of the discussion is that someone claimed he was "unlucky" not to play more Tests, which is clearly not something he's particularly concerned about.

Saying "he didn't tour because he could make more money playing T20" is 100% supporting my point. Not yours.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Did you miss the part where Asia is not a nice play to visit? I'm not saying that South Africa is much better, stay there for long enough and getting murdered is basically a statistical certainty, but as a touring sportsman Asia in the 70s doesn't even compare to South Africa in 2017.

And besides money is more than a good enough reason by itself. They would have earned **** all for the tour back then, and I don't know why you bring up Shakib's earnings as if they are somehow relevant. The entire point of the discussion is that someone claimed he was "unlucky" not to play more Tests, which is clearly not something he's particularly concerned about.

Saying "he didn't tour because he could make more money playing T20" is 100% supporting my point. Not yours.

You brought up money. If a cricketer can only play so many days cricket each year, and he priroritises money, then a non Big 3 cricketer will prirotise t20 over internationals. Fact.

So there is no point justifying Chappell and LIllee missing tours cos they weren't paid enough when you state players lose credibility for missing tours.

So if the issue isn't money - and just internationals. Shakib missed 2 tests in SA, he is still far behind where he would be if he played for India, England or Australia. Fact.

Yes - Shakib is unlucky to have played for a country that has played only 20 something away tests in over the last 10 years. Fact.

So why is Shakib's credibility in missing a tour to SA when prioritising money dismissed when Lillee and Chappel are not? I'm curious.

Either players lose credit for missing tours or they do not.

Why can he or his fans not complain about the FTP scheduling as being unjust and unfair just cos he missed one away tour due to being tired from so many t20? It is one tour in eleven years!