wasim akram vs glenn mcgrath

[Sanz]

Ive not been proved wrong about anything at all. Ive made a mistake or 2 but even then the figures still refered to the original question and were still relevant.

You have not made 1 good arguemnt for Wasim and all you have done is unfairly attack the methods I have used to support McGrath and when they are irrefutable you either ignore them or twist them.

You have done no work or research to back up your own case just attacked mine. I'm not going to waste time doing the heavy lifting to have you distort it.

Finished.

Only person that has twisted stats is you and when you are proved wrong, you accuse me of unfairly attacking your methods. Your methods are attacked because you they are utterly and ridiculously biased to suit your argument.

 

[Swervy]

For the nth time, I have no problem with that i but please dont make remarks like ' Wasim was good at knocking the tail'. Also, Since you are using statistics to prove that Mcgrath is better then be consistent and dont come up with statements like " I dont care what stats say....and blah blah blah".

but Wasim was good at knocking over the tail...why is it insulting to say that?

 

[Sanz]

but Wasim was good at knocking over the tail...why is it insulting to say that?

I am sure your following statement was said as a Compliment (so you claimed and I just saw pigs were flying in the sky) :-

"Akram was great at knocking over the tail and yes he was a great bowler,but give me McGrath to get rid of the openers any day of the week."

 

[Sanz]

You have done no work or research to back up your own case just attacked mine. I'm not going to waste time doing the heavy lifting to have you distort it.

And I am sure you have done a lot of research and that's how you reached the following Conslusion :-

a. Wasim's achievements done compare well to Mcgrath's
b. England were better in the 1980s is an absolute joke which just shows how people will say anything to back a weak point.
c. England were Top 4 for majority of Mcgrath's Career
d. Wasim relying on home tests to bring his average down.


Not to forget your super research where you claimed the entire subcontinent as one country and then compared Akram's performance from 1990 (and Mcgrath's from debut).

You were right, they were indeed waste of time.

 

[Hugh]

Only person that has twisted stats is you and when you are proved wrong, you accuse me of unfairly attacking your methods. Your methods are attacked because you they are utterly and ridiculously biased to suit your argument.

So your argument is that Wasim was better than McGrath at knocking off the top order ?

 

[Hugh]

I am sure your following statement was said as a Compliment (so you claimed and I just saw pigs were flying in the sky) :-

"Akram was great at knocking over the tail and yes he was a great bowler,but give me McGrath to get rid of the openers any day of the week."

and what exactly is wrong with that statement ? Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Hodgo7]

Here are some stats to help..

In regards to batters from 1-6 Wasim's = 56.28% of his victims. McGrath's = 67.34%

In regards to batters 7-11 Wasim's = 43.72%. McGraths 32.66%

Thats a fair size difference which suggests that McGrath is a lot better knocking off the top order. In regards to the wicket distribution its dead even.

Wasims 1st innings accounted for 58.5% of his victims with McGraths (as of today) came in at 58.5% as well.

I'd have McGrath over Wasim if I had to choose one, but if I was choosing my All-time team I would have both.

 

[Hodgo7]

Sure you can argue in favor of Mcgrath, but please dont post ridiculous stuff like "he was good @ knocking the tail" when the guy took 65% top order wickets or accuse him of ball tampering etc.

Not sure where you got your stats from champ. Read my post before this...

 

[Sanz]

and what exactly is wrong with that statement ? Don't shoot the messenger.

If you dont know something, then please stay away from the discussion.

Swervy's penchant for putting down any subcontinent player/performance is well known here. Here is the post, try to read the tone and the contxt in which it was said :-

http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost.php?p=148011&postcount=22

 

[Hodgo7]

Who were the partners of Mcgrath please ?????????????
One legend Waqar bowling at the other end taking half of the share of the wickets that Wasim could have taken

Seem to forget that he also had another all-time great bowler in Warne at the other end taking bagfuls of wickets which would take away opportunities for McGrath.

 

[Hugh]

If you dont know something, then please stay away from the discussion.

I've been in on this discussion before you entered it, and frankly you have failed to provide any rebuttal to the fact that McGrath picked up more top order wickets than Wasim. You'd do well to follow your own advice.

Swervy's penchant for putting down any subcontinent player/performance is well known here. Here is the post, try to read the tone and the contxt in which it was said :-

http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost.php?p=148011&postcount=22

What does bias or lack of have to do with it when the facts are in his favour ? You might feel, and perhaps rightly so, that he has exaggerated the bit where Wasim picks up more lower order wickets to make it seem as if those are the only wickets he specialises in. ButIf you ignore the exaggeration, you'll still see that McGrath picks up more top order wickets than Wasim did. Its your choice. You can either nitpick and go round and round in circles, or see the bigger picture.

 

[silentstriker]

Seem to forget that he also had another all-time great bowler in Warne at the other end taking bagfuls of wickets which would take away opportunities for McGrath.

And Gillespie, though not the quality of Waqar, was an excellent bowler too.

 

[Hodgo7]

And Gillespie, though not the quality of Waqar, was an excellent bowler too.

My point was one guy on here was commenting that Wasim had Waqar at the other end thus taking away wicket opportunities. Nevermind that McGrath had Warne and Dizzy as well....Silly boy....

 

[Hodgo7]

And Gillespie, though not the quality of Waqar, was an excellent bowler too.

Exactly mate...

 

[Sanz]

Not sure where you got your stats from champ. Read my post before this...

Only if you had read the posts before making a useless post :-

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerWicketAnalysisGraph.asp?PlayerID=0029

Btw - What position does Glichrist bat on, I am sure That's a tailender Wicket. I am sure it is so easy to get players like Pollock, Klusener, Gilchristm Akmal, Razzaq, Dhoni, Flintoff etc are all tailenders..

 

[Hodgo7]

Only if you had read the posts before making a useless post :-

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerWicketAnalysisGraph.asp?PlayerID=0029

Btw - What position does Glichrist bat on, I am sure That's a tailender Wicket. I am sure it is so easy to get players like Pollock, Klusener, Gilchristm Akmal, Razzaq, Dhoni, Flintoff etc are all tailenders..

I read your post you goose but why not compare the tailenders (7-11) with the rest of the lineup as I did ? I suppose that doesn't help your point now does it ?

 

[Swervy]

If you dont know something, then please stay away from the discussion.

Swervy's penchant for putting down any subcontinent player/performance is well known here. Here is the post, try to read the tone and the contxt in which it was said :-

http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost.php?p=148011&postcount=22

I have read the thread again, and I still have got to say I cant see what is particularly wrong with what I say.

McGrath has been more successful at knocking over the top order batsman, its a fact.

As for the comment about me putting down any subcontinent player or performance, I feel I am just the balance to the normally over the top statements which seem to come from a number of people who would appear to have a subcontinent-flavoured slant on things.
When the original Wasim vs McGrath thread too place over 2 years ago, you said this

Wasim Akram - Greatest bowler of modern era. Mcgrath is good but can not be compared to Wasim.

I will deal with the two sentences in turn:
Why on earth is it me being biased to question that Wasim was the greatest bowler of the modern era...straight off I instantly think of Marshall or Hadlee as being better, that isnt because they arent from the subcontinent, its because I think they were better...and the stats give strong evidence to back it up

Then you say 'McGrath is good but cannot be compared to Wasim'....my question throughout that thread was, 'Why can't McGrath be compared to Wasim?'... If McGrath had an average 2 runs worse, or went for 0.5 of a run per over more, or didnt take as many wickets per match or whatever, then fair enough, you would have something to back up such an outlandish statement...but as I showed throughout that thread, McGraths stats were pretty much all superior to Wasims...and as both bowlers were/are opening bowlers, one place you have to look is how well they do against the top batsmen and or the top of the order, and McGrath without a shadow of a doubt comes out on top....all I actually said in that thread is that througout both careers, McGraths has in fact been more successful in all of the majorly used statistics in test cricket. A bowlers success is measured in wickets and how efficiently that bowler has taken those wickets, McGrath is a more economical and effective wicket taker, especially of the top order batsmen, than Akram..its a fact, no bias in there.

As I said, Akram was a true great, but I am surely ok to say that to rip out a top order, which is what I want an opening bowler to do for me , I would choose McGrath

 

[Swervy]

and just further note on the top order stuff

Akram took 1.25 wickets per test of batsmen in the top three
McGrath has taken 1.84 wickets per test of batsmen in the top three

 

[Hodgo7]

and just further note on the top order stuff

Akram took 1.25 wickets per test of batsmen in the top three
McGrath has taken 1.84 wickets per test of batsmen in the top three

Also see my stats in regards to numbers 1-6 and 7-11..

 

[Sanz]

I've been in on this discussion before you entered it, and frankly you have failed to provide any rebuttal to the fact that McGrath picked up more top order wickets than Wasim. You'd do well to follow your own advice.

I know what I am talking about. I just proved it that how shallow that argument is.(gilchrist, Pollock etc bat @ 7-8 etc). And no Swerwy didn't say that Mcgrath picked up more top order wickets, he said Wasim was great @ knocking the tails as if Akram was some Irfan Pathan or something.Besides a wicket is a wicket is a wicket. If Mcgrath isn't able to pick tailenders or was less succefull against them then I would consider it as his weakness.

What does bias or lack of have to do with it when the facts are in his favour ? You might feel, and perhaps rightly so, that he has exaggerated the bit where Wasim picks up more lower order wickets to make it seem as if those are the only wickets he specialises in. ButIf you ignore the exaggeration, you'll still see that McGrath picks up more top order wickets than Wasim did. Its your choice. You can either nitpick and go round and round in circles, or see the bigger picture.

Only exaggeration is being done by you and Swervy, you want me to look at the stats your way(that too without doing proper research) which is taking the top order wicket is somehow better than taking tail wickets. It can also be argued that Unlike Mcgrath, Wasim had the variety (such as bowling Yorkers) to knock off any wicket and that's the reason for the uniform distribution of his wickets. but You are taking this uniform distribution of his wickets as a negative for Akram and trying to argue this point in favor of Mcgrath in a rather insulting way.

Besides one needs to take 10 wickets to win a test match, If India were able to knock off Gillespie in 2004, we probable would have not lost the series, If England were able to knock off Vaas (and Murali) they probably would have won the series. If Mcgrath & Warne were able to knock off Giles and likes, they probably would have been defending the next ashes.