Wally Hammond vs Jacques Kallis

[kyear2]

I'd personally put Gibbs there too but I know I'm alone on that one, Hugh Tayfield too but I know I'm alone on that alone as well.

Those are the two I currently narrow it down to, but there's so many options it's a position that almost has no correct answer.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Those are the two I currently narrow it down to, but there's so many options it's a position that almost has no correct answer.

Yes so many options like Abdul Qadir

 

[Coronis]

They were my 4-5-6 for a long time, and might still be - though I the more I think about it the more I also lean into Verity.

I thought about Verity too. And while he definitely did in FC, he just doesn’t have the output of the others, and volume is pretty important for spinners imo. iirc he has easily the lowest output of any of the spinners who could be considered. Now that’s not completely his fault but its enough for me to bump him down slightly.

 

[kyear2]

This is why I argue Kyear can be dishonest with his views for the sake of winning an argument.

Again you're confusing me with yourself.

I finally stopped taking anything you said seriously when you said that Imran's home record was perfectly clean and legitimate.

Everything you post after that just proves it.

Yesterday you said Pollock was the consensus best SA bat until I showed you otherwise. Instead of just saying you were wrong you immediately just went into denial and shifted the goal posts.

I legitimately have no idea who the 4th best spinner is. Two days ago I was trying.to create a AT 4th XI and I couldn't press send because I legitimately didn't know. Underwood was his nick name when it was wet, not so much otherwise, Tayfield and Gibbs lacks the raw numbers, I don't even consider Ash for the spot at this time, Geum for me is a little too Barnes like in the disparity of his numbers.

It's the 4th best spinner ever, and not only do I not have a clue, I don't give a ****.

Again, stop projecting.

 

[The Sean]

I thought about Verity too. And while he definitely did in FC, he just doesn’t have the output of the others, and volume is pretty important for spinners imo. iirc he has easily the lowest output of any of the spinners who could be considered. Now that’s not completely his fault but its enough for me to bump him down slightly.

Yeah that's fair about output, I just think his quality was immense. On the output front I take your point because I do bump up Ashwin - we know about his shortcomings in unfavourable places and conditions, but **** me he took wickets in such incredible volume when he was going strong.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah that's fair about output, I just think his quality was immense. On the output front I take your point because I do bump up Ashwin - we know about his shortcomings in unfavourable places and conditions, but **** me he took wickets in such incredible volume when he was going strong.

Yeah he was on the low end of overs and on the high end of SR among the spinners. Usually its one or the other.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah he was on the low end of overs and on the high end of SR among the spinners. Usually its one or the other.

Verity has a WPM of 3.42, his contemporary Grimmett has of 5.32. I think that's sufficient reason to rate Grum definitively higher, though the difference is very small.

 

[kyear2]

Are they objectively more important in the sense that the absence of one affects more than others? Sure.

But I think it's easier to find a baseline competent slip catcher than in the covers/gully who will be both a good ground fielder and catcher.

The marginal value of an exceptional slip catcher to take blinders is a bit exaggerated IMO because most here assume the alternative is an exceptionally bad 90s Pakistan slip, which is not the reality for most teams.

Like literally every single time you post you prove my point for me.

1. Gully is part of the cordon

2. Teams rake exceptional fielders from the slips and place them in the cordon when the show potential. Because it's more important. Harvey, Richards etc etc.

3. People get selected or keep said selections because they are slip specialists.

4. Austria's cordon in the India series was well above Pakistan's, Khawaja's drops cost them two games. When Smith finally got it together in that series he held multiple match winning blinders, especially in the final test. Catches Usman aren't taking. He had similar performances in the SL series.

Again, I know this is part of your master plan, but devaluing what guys like Waugh, Hooper, Kallis etc consistently did is stupid. Just one example, that famous '84 series that at the time sealed the WI as the greatest ever, Lloyd and Richardson contributed more to that team in the cordon than even with the bat. The catches they took were ridiculous.
Infact the hall mark for the tow best teams of the modern era, were their slip cordons and the catches and half chances taken. For SA, the team that succeeded Aus as the best in the world followed the same exact template.

Sometimes when you start I genuinely don't know if it's your biases or ignorance showing.

 

[Johan]

Verity has a WPM of 3.42, his contemporary Grimmett has of 5.32. I think that's sufficient reason to rate Grum definitively higher, though the difference is very small.

what are their ashes stats with WPM?

 

[Coronis]

Verity has a WPM of 3.42, his contemporary Grimmett has of 5.32. I think that's sufficient reason to rate Grum definitively higher, though the difference is very small.

I think you have the wrong numbers

 

[kyear2]

I’m also on the Tayfield train btw. For me its a shootout between Tayfield, Laker and Grimmett. The others are all reasonable shouts too but this is just for me.

Guess a very marginal Tayfield consensus is forming.

As I said, over the weekend for me it came down to Gibbs and Tayfield and tbh I only took Gibbs because I had just gone through Swanton's All Time team again and he had Gibbs with O'Reilly working together.

 

[Johan]

I think you have the wrong numbers

another Luffy L smh

 

[Coronis]

what are their ashes stats with WPM?

3.28 for Verity @ 28.06
4.82 for Grimmett @ 32.44

 

[kyear2]

There is far more value to having 1-2 great slips than anyone great in any other positions. 3rd slip plus, I don't think it makes that much difference.

This is not just marginal value compared to rubbish. A second slip in particular who can take blinders is a fairly big upgrade on one who can't, in a way that doesn't apply to other positions.

I would agree with the part about 3rd slip because it's not in Olay as often as the other two, but I've seen too many match changing, absolute blinders from guys like de Villiers, Richards and especially Richardson.

No question 2nd slip is way more important, but it's a toss up between the other two. First gets more chances, but can be protected and they tend to be slightly less difficult, but 3rd seems to mainly get screamers.

 

[Coronis]

Guess a very marginal Tayfield consensus is forming.

As I said, over the weekend for me it came down to Gibbs and Tayfield and tbh I only took Gibbs because I had just gone through Swanton's All Time team again and he had Gibbs with O'Reilly working together.

Why do you continue to ignore my question?

 

[subshakerz]

Like literally every single time you post you prove my point for me.

1. Gully is part of the cordon

2. Teams rake exceptional fielders from the slips and place them in the cordon when the show potential. Because it's more important. Harvey, Richards etc etc.

3. People get selected or keep said selections because they are slip specialists.

4. Austria's cordon in the India series was well above Pakistan's, Khawaja's drops cost them two games. When Smith finally got it together in that series he held multiple match winning blinders, especially in the final test. Catches Usman aren't taking. He had similar performances in the SL series.

Again, I know this is part of your master plan, but devaluing what guys like Waugh, Hooper, Kallis etc consistently did is stupid. Just one example, that famous '84 series that at the time sealed the WI as the greatest ever, Lloyd and Richardson contributed more to that team in the cordon than even with the bat. The catches they took were ridiculous.
Infact the hall mark for the tow best teams of the modern era, were their slip cordons and the catches and half chances taken. For SA, the team that succeeded Aus as the best in the world followed the same exact template.

Sometimes when you start I genuinely don't know if it's your biases or ignorance showing.

Didn't address my points.

 

[subshakerz]

I legitimately have no idea who the 4th best spinner is.

That wasn't the question Coronis asked. Do you consider Qadir a legitimate no.4 contender or were you just BSing?

 

[kyear2]

Kohli is decent in the slips, Smith is great. How much more do you guys think that Smith has added to his cordon than Kohli?

Some argue whether Smith is great, I think he is.

Using the last series alone, and I mentioned it in real time, there were two half chances that he didn't even get to and wasn't even mentioned. Those are the catches that Smith takes, and took in the final test, that doesn't even register as a chance for some.

I always remember this article.



Yes, you want the very best back there, definitely makes a difference.

 

[Coronis]

3.28 for Verity @ 28.06
4.82 for Grimmett @ 32.44

For comparison

5.37 for O’Reilly @ 25.36

I was recently reading an interview from Arthur Morris from 2013. Interesting on O’Reilly and Warne.

Oh, great. I fielded at slips to him. He had just come back from South Africa and he came on to bowl. I had never seen anything like it: fast spin, he cut his legspinner, but his wrong'un was superb and it bounced. It was a good side we played against. I think he got 6 for 28 or something. I took a couple of catches. Shane Warne is a great legspinner but if you look at Tiger's wickets to number of runs, it will be half of Warne's. I've never seen a better bowler. But I think Shane's the best orthodox legspinner I have seen.

Note: Tiger was the one who got Morris to give up bowling and move up to become an opening bat.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah we are weighing frequency of a blinder versus the runs saved and somewhat less frequent blinders of a cover/gully. I think folks may underestimate how many runs an excellent ground fielding op saves, and the pressure the build that leads to wickets and run outs.

A top ground fielder saves runs, supports bowlers, takes blinders and gets run outs. I don't think we should just say slips are most important.

Have you ever watched cricket?