Wally Hammond vs Jacques Kallis

[kyear2]

I said the EDGE of Kallis over Hammond in secondary discipline is meaningless because Hammond is nearly as good a bowler. Whereas Hammond is a much better bat.

Like how Hadlee is the much better bowler?

 

[kyear2]

Yeah whatever marginal value the slightly better bowling gives you isn't going to affect the game as much as their main batting.

Ummmmmmmmm

 

[subshakerz]

If Sobers hadn't taken up cricket, who replaces him in the first team.

In that very specific scenario, I would go with Kallis, being the more recognized all rounder and a more one on one replacement in the cordon.

Dude that's EXACTLY what I said, you select Kallis over Hammond In an ATG XI. There is no lie.

You intentionally misrepresent what I say, call me racist and then wonder why I clicked you.
You're a ****ing nuisance

I don't know why you keep insisting on being called a racist. It's rather disturbing.

Stop being so sensitive.

 

[subshakerz]

Like how Hadlee is the much better bowler?

Gap between Hadlee and Imran's bowling is smaller for me and batting is bigger.

And I rate runs at 7/8 higher values than 5th bowler role.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah whatever marginal value the slightly better bowling gives you isn't going to affect the game as much as their main batting.

I'm really struggling to see how this doesn't also apply to Hadlee over Imran.

Even when we look at batting. Hadlee's average of 27 isn't that far off of Imran's (preferred period, as per your request of '74 - '88) average of 32.

Rpi 27 and 23.

Well similar to this and as I've always maintained Imran the better all rounder, Hadlee the better cricketer.

 

[kyear2]

Hammond’s bowling record is not even good.
Less than 1 WPM.

While I agree that Kallis production places him much higher, Hammond's wpm is greatly skewed by his later career where he just stopped bowling.

Really shouldn't include his list war stats for batting or bowling.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm really struggling to see how this doesn't also apply to Hadlee over Imran.

Even when we look at batting. Hadlee's average of 27 isn't that far off of Imran's (preferred period, as per your request of '74 - '88) average of 32.

Rpi 27 and 23.

Well similar to this and as I've always maintained Imran the better all rounder, Hadlee the better cricketer.

Before I answer, do you consider Imran to be a bowler averaging 21 with 334 wickets in 72 tests @50 SR or not? Because I don't think you do, so arguing his batting is moot.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed.

Hammond is a better batsman.
Kallis is a better bowler.

Hammond the better bat
Kallis the better bowler
Hammond the slight edge at slip

Even without the 3rd (and the pun was intended), the weighting for primary for a 5th bowler is undeniable.

 

[kyear2]

I don’t think so. The difference between the top batsmen is not as much as it seems. Practically, the difference between them as batsmen is easily smaller than the difference between them as bowlers. It depends how you want to weight them.

Their primary role is as batsmen, the greater impact they will have in the game is as batsmen, it has to be weighed towards the batting.

 

[subshakerz]

Their primary role is as batsmen, the fester impact they will have in the game is as batsmen, it has to be weighed towards the batting.

Agreed.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah can’t imagine consistently getting batsmen like Ponting, Tendulkar, Waugh, Hayden, Chanderpaul or Gilchrist out could make a difference.

Yes, Kallis was clutch and a better bowler than given credit for.

Not pulling down his accomplishments.

But Hammond got out the GOAT a couple times as well.

But yes, Kallis easier the better all rounder. The only reason I rank Imran higher is because he was better on primary, but think they are pretty similar on secondary.

But I weight primary skills a lot higher than most I believe, and Hammond was just the better batsman.

But even with all of that I have them ranked really close, at most 2 positions apart, think 15th and 16th.

 

[kyear2]

How do you disagree? You said Hammond is a better slip.

From the perspective that even though Hammond is rated slightly higher and is technically the GOAT, neither are going to drop anything and Kallis specialized at the (present day) more important position. And the post made it seem like it was a definitive advantage.

Though I'm now remembering that Hammond does have an advantage in that he was better to spin.

So yeah, you're right, advantage to Hammond.

 

[akilana]

Y’all watched Hammond play or just going by what you read about him?

 

[kyear2]

Gap between Hadlee and Imran's bowling is smaller for me and batting is bigger.

And I rate runs at 7/8 higher values than 5th bowler role.

Key here is smaller "for you" . One is an elite top tier, top 3 elite bowler of all time. The other is 8th to 10th and someone competing with Lillee and Donald.

During your preferred playing period for Imran when he was a bowler, his rpi was 27, compared to Hadlee's 23.

Not to add that the batting rank in ratings between Hammond and Kallis is very similar to that between Hadlee and Imran, but that only matters when it suits you.


And yes, an elite high end no. 7, who's also elite in their primary, yes I'll agree ranks higher in value.

They've only been one of them though.

And just for reference and I'll say it again.

Replacing the 3rd best bowler in an AT XI with the 8th best because of batting is the equivalent of replacing the 3rd best bat with the 9th best for slip catching and bowling.

But somehow you have no issue with scenario A, but would catch a seizure of Hammond replaced Sachin.

Both are equally as silly.

 

[Coronis]

I will say this. I think we nitpick too much here due to constant comparisons. And I think generally the gaps between the top batsmen and bowlers are far smaller than anyone would think from reading posts here.

From that POV, dropping say, Tendulkar for Hammond or even Kallis, or Marshall for Imran… doesn’t sound so crazy imo.

 

[kyear2]

Before I answer, do you consider Imran to be a bowler averaging 21 with 334 wickets in 72 tests @50 SR or not? Because I don't think you do, so arguing his batting is moot.

Of course not.

I believe Imran to be a bowler that while he was averaging 17.5 at home was averaging 25.03 away at a strike rate of 56.2

Now, when you discuss Ash, you say that having a home /away difference of 9 is disqualifying for an ATG, and Ash's he record was legit. What's the difference?

So let me as you a question, for the gentleman with a s/r of 58 in England, 63 in Australia and 61 In India, do you think his home record is fully, 100% legitimate?

Your answer will fully illustrate your level of objectivity.

 

[subshakerz]

Of course not.

Okay then bringing up his batting in that period is irrelevant since you dónt consider his bowling numbers that period.

Now, when you discuss Ash, you say that having a home /away difference of 9 is disqualifying for an ATG, and Ash's he record was legit. What's the difference?

I don't do that. I bring up his record in SENA.

So let me as you a question, for the gentleman with a s/r of 58 in England, 63 in Australia and 61 In India, do you think his home record is fully, 100% legitimate?

Your answer will fully illustrate your level of objectivity.

Yes of course I consider his home numbers as much as other tamperers that period including Hadlee and Marshall. Imran was that good.

If you dock Imran you should also dock Marshalls overall numbers too. But you won't because you are a hypocrite.

 

[subshakerz]

Key here is smaller "for you" . One is an elite top tier, top 3 elite bowler of all time. The other is 8th to 10th and someone competing with Lillee and Donald.

Obviously my rankings are different. Imran is in my top 5. Kallis is a top 20 bat at best.

Replacing the 3rd best bowler in an AT XI with the 8th best because of batting is the equivalent of replacing the 3rd best bat with the 9th best for slip catching and bowling.

You replace Hammond who is a top 10 bat for Kallis not in the top 10 in an ATG XI. Far worse.

 

[Johan]

Hammond makes my second XI as a Batsmen alone.

 

[subshakerz]

Hammond makes my second XI as a Batsmen alone.

Same.