• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Vaas vs Srinath vs Lee vs Zaheer vs Sobers

Best bowler


  • Total voters
    56

Sir Alex

Banned
In his defence; Lee played 1 test in Sri Lanka and 2 in Bangladesh. He only played India some 4 times and 0 in Pakistan. Can't take a whole lot away from that.



Vaas himself wasn't too brilliant in Bangladesh or India and had mixed success overseas. It's not so much about difficulty as it is about needing different tools. Lee didn't swing the ball well or consistently with much control until the end of his career. He was a player with speed and bounce which wouldn't aid him in the subcontinent's slow and low pitches.
7 test matches imho are fair enough to judge him especially seeing his overall career and skill that he didn't possess it to succeed in the subcontinent. That Lee lacked the game to succeed in the subcontinent compared against Vaas is indeed a minus point for Lee. Vaas was not great in India, but his record is far better than that of Lee and the fact that he succeeded well in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangaldesh where he played substantial number of test matches shows India was more of an aberation. (Also didn't help Indian batsmen were largely brilliant at home)
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
7 test matches imho are fair enough to judge him especially seeing his overall career and skill that he didn't possess it to succeed in the subcontinent. That Lee lacked the game to succeed in the subcontinent compared against Vaas is indeed a minus point for Lee. Vaas was not great in India, but his record is far better than that of Lee and the fact that he succeeded well in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangaldesh where he played substantial number of test matches shows India was more of an aberation. (Also didn't help Indian batsmen were largely brilliant at home)
It really is not a minus point even from your viewpoint. There are x number of teams and maybe a and b types of pitches. As long as you are succeeding against the same number of teams it does not matter whether they are on a or b type pitches.

How much more useful is it to you if for example you:

Fail: Bang, Ind, Pak, SL
Succeed: NZ, Aus, SA, Eng

than if it was

Fail: Bang, Ind, SA, Eng
Succeed: NZ, Aus, Pak, SL

It's still success against 4 and failure against 4, with either mixed dominion or one-sided dominion - neither which are desirable.

Anyway, 7 tests against 4 different countries is a poor sample. I didn't think 6 tests against 2 countries was much, so you know I really can't be bothered arguing this one.
 
Last edited:

Sir Alex

Banned
The question is not about 7 or 3 or 200 tests, but whether Lee possessed the game to succeed in the subcontinet.

You yourself admitted he didn't. End of.

This is not a statistical argument basically. But a fairly acceptable truth backed by statistics. From my memory I've not seen Lee putting in a match turning spell. Heck out of 18 innings, his best BBI was 2 wickets for and BBM was 3 for shows how direly ineffective he was. Add to that Dubai (which again is roughly the same conditions as subcontinent) the sample becomes 9 test matches and the bowling average is 60 at SR of 105 which is D.I.R.E
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
I do think Lee's record in the subcontinent is something that should affect where he stands overall in his career. Doesn't necessarily convince me he wasn't better than Vaas (I honestly can't split them), but to ignore it is silly iMO.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
The question is not about 7 or 3 or 200 tests, but whether Lee possessed the game to succeed in the subcontinet.

You yourself admitted he didn't. End of.

This is not a statistical argument basically. But a fairly acceptable truth backed by statistics. From my memory I've not seen Lee putting in a match turning spell. Heck out of 18 innings, his best BBI was 2 wickets for and BBM was 3 for shows how direly ineffective he was. Add to that Dubai (which again is roughly the same conditions as subcontinent) the sample becomes 9 test matches and the bowling average is 60 at SR of 105 which is D.I.R.E
Actually, I think he did have them - or rather got them eventually. If he were fit/spearheading the attack right now against Bang or Pakistan in those countries I'd probably have money on him succeeding.

But even my own guesses of what "works" in certain conditions are just that...guesses. I wouldn't have thought McGrath would be as successful as he was in the subcontinent but there you go.

UAE is as much the subcontinent as Iran is TBF.

I do think Lee's record in the subcontinent is something that should affect where he stands overall in his career. Doesn't necessarily convince me he wasn't better than Vaas (I honestly can't split them), but to ignore it is silly iMO.
How do you use it to rate him?

Sri Lanka: 1 Test
Pakistna: 0 Tests
Bangladesh: 2 Tests
India: 4 Tests

I'd say he didn't succeed and at least against two of them there were no guarantees of him succeeding; but I'd hazard to call him a failure when he's barely had a go.
 
Last edited:

Sir Alex

Banned
Ikki, I don't think he got any better in his career than his peak which coincided with the fag end of his career (2007-08 till 2008) and at this period he toured India where he was utterly disappointing. If he couldn't do better than the 60 plus he did in that tour, I am not sure how he could do better.

Jono, I initially used to think Lee was actually better than Vaas. But when this thread came, it made me go and checkup statsguru and thus gain a better insight into their careers. As a coach of a hypothetical team and if I were given to choose between these two :

in Australia, England and SA- I would definitely go for Lee over Vaas
Much else everywhere - Vaas

So on the overall, Vaas.
 

Sir Alex

Banned
Oh and McGrath indeed possessed almost all the weapons in a pace bowler's armoury except super speeds. I would back him to be successful anywhere in the world if allowed to settle down a bit.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Ikki, I don't think he got any better in his career than his peak which coincided with the fag end of his career (2007-08 till 2008) and at this period he toured India where he was utterly disappointing. If he couldn't do better than the 60 plus he did in that tour, I am not sure how he could do better.

Jono, I initially used to think Lee was actually better than Vaas. But when this thread came, it made me go and checkup statsguru and thus gain a better insight into their careers. As a coach of a hypothetical team and if I were given to choose between these two :

in Australia, England and SA- I would definitely go for Lee over Vaas
Much else everywhere - Vaas

So on the overall, Vaas.
You are talking about the current India at home; I wouldn't expect him to succeed well there over a long period against those batsmen. He wasn't good enough IMO - also he wasn't fit last time IIRC. I am not so sure he'd blast away in SL either. Which is why I mentioned Bang and Pak. Those two are in the subcontinent remember? And as you said you'd prefer he succeed in some of those conditions I thought that opinion would be relevant to you. Right now the score is 0 for 4, and I think Lee was a bit better than that, regardless of the perils in the subcontinent.

Oh and McGrath indeed possessed almost all the weapons in a pace bowler's armoury except super speeds. I would back him to be successful anywhere in the world if allowed to settle down a bit.
McGrath relied on accuracy, seam and bounce. The best tool in the subcontinent IMO is swing, which is something he did all too inconsistently. Ironically, his record is not that flash in the subcontinent. In fact, overall, they're his worst away records.

India: avg. 21.30 sr. 56.9
Sri Lanka: avg. 29.20 sr. 64.9.
Pakistan: avg. 31.00 sr. 63.4.
Bang: N/A
 
Last edited:

Sir Alex

Banned
Ikki af at his peak he cannot average lesser than 60 (not 35 or 40) regardless of batting strenth (Watson and Johnson did much better than him, Ishant did better than almost everyone bar Harbhajan) then that indeed shows he just was not upto it. See Zaheer averaged 40 odd in that, but he indeed had his moments (some even matchwinning - like the 5th day morning spell at Mohali). Lee just didn't put any pressure on Indian batsmen.

Anyway that's that.

Yes, McGrath's figures aren't flashy but then they are in relation to his awesome overall career. If an Indian pace bowler managed to return such figures routinely in the subcontinent, he'd be one among the first names to be pencilled in the team sheet. And I think he's statistically one of the best visiting fast bowlers in the subcontinent as well (Steyn is there I think cba to look up statsguru).

WAG.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Ikki af at his peak he cannot average lesser than 60 (not 35 or 40) regardless of batting strenth (Watson and Johnson did much better than him, Ishant did better than almost everyone bar Harbhajan) then that indeed shows he just was not upto it. See Zaheer averaged 40 odd in that, but he indeed had his moments (some even matchwinning - like the 5th day morning spell at Mohali). Lee just didn't put any pressure on Indian batsmen.

Anyway that's that.
IIRC Lee wasn't fit and had a pretty miserable tour. I don't think his performances there do justice to his peak. Look at how he did when India toured Australia just before the reverse tour. Yes, they are different conditions, but not that different to have some 40 point jump in average.

Altogether though, the Indian batting line-up is one of the greatest of all time, and at home are unbelievably tough to rattle. Still, my point was never that he'd succeed in India; but that he could in other countries in the sub-continent.

Yes, McGrath's figures aren't flashy but then they are in relation to his awesome overall career. If an Indian pace bowler managed to return such figures routinely in the subcontinent, he'd be one among the first names to be pencilled in the team sheet. And I think he's statistically one of the best visiting fast bowlers in the subcontinent as well (Steyn is there I think cba to look up statsguru).

WAG.
Sure, it's relatively good, but it's not that good as to bestow him the superlatives of having all the requisite weapons to succeed there. As I say, it would have helped him more had he been a better swinger of the ball - look at the Pakistani legends like Imran, Waqar, Wasim or Hadlee, Donald and Marshall.
 

Sir Alex

Banned
IIRC Lee wasn't fit and had a pretty miserable tour. I don't think his performances there do justice to his peak. Look at how he did when India toured Australia just before the reverse tour. Yes, they are different conditions, but not that different to have some 40 point jump in average.

Altogether though, the Indian batting line-up is one of the greatest of all time, and at home are unbelievably tough to rattle. Still, my point was never that he'd succeed in India; but that he could in other countries in the sub-continent.
A parallel can be seen in Murali's case (his Aus and SL records). Was Lee injured? I don't recollect.

Sure, it's relatively good, but it's not that good as to bestow him the superlatives of having all the requisite weapons to succeed there. As I say, it would have helped him more had he been a better swinger of the ball - look at the Pakistani legends like Imran, Waqar, Wasim or Hadlee, Donald and Marshall.
He lacked sheer pace unlike many greats who succeeded there, but he made up for it with some clever variations and seam movement which I think is indeed creditable.

Steyn's figures are nearly unbelievable in such an age. Despite having played on such roads as Pakistan and Chennai pitches he has taken 57 wickets @ 21 in 11 tests. That is incredible.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
A parallel can be seen in Murali's case (his Aus and SL records). Was Lee injured? I don't recollect.
I agree in the sense that I don't think Murali would be averaging 76 - as if that is representative of his talent - in Australia had he played more...but I am fairly confident he still would have done pretty badly. Australia made it a point to single him out and take him to the cleaners. It was explicitly mentioned and carried out. Australia is also one of the generally least friendly places to bowl spin.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Lee wasn't injured, but he became ill and also had split up with his wife I think.

Whether that's an excuse or not is up for anyone to disect and determine.
 
The subcontinent is only 4 countries. It's better to be stronger everywhere bar the subcontinent than vice-versa.
Ya there are about a million different teams playing cricket right ? Seriously your arguments are getting more desperate by the minute. If an Asian batsman averaged 20 in Australia and 20 in SA but performed everywhere else, you would accept that he is a great bat ?

Vaas averages less than 30 against 4 teams

Lee averages less than 30 against 3 teams . I feel inclined to leave out Sri Lanka as he has only played 2 tests against them but I am sure you won't agree to that because now it is in your favour.

Winner : Vaas

Vaas averages 30-40 against 4 countries.
Lee averages 30-40 against 3 countries.

Winner : Lee

Vaas averages 40+ against 1 country.
Lee averages 40+ against 4 countries!!!!

Winner : Vaas by a mile.

No matter what childish excuses you come up with, Vaas has clearly been the more consistent of the two and a better bowler. Keep living in your imaginary world where every Aussie is better than every other player.
 

Migara

International Coach
No, mate they shouldn't. You've essentially missed the point. I am not suggesting we ignore any side merely because of a lack of decent sample. I suggest that only for minnows. SL during Lee's career has certainly been no minnow.

There is a reason why we remove minnows, they are not equal to the other test sides so I am not about to treat them the same way by removing all records because of an inadequate sample.
So you are suggesting that a good layer who has dome bad against a minnow can come back, while a good side who has dome badly against a good bowler could not come back?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
So you are suggesting that a good layer who has dome bad against a minnow can come back, while a good side who has dome badly against a good bowler could not come back?
Yes, the difference in probability, and gauging that probability, is large. We are in the former assuming ONE very good player is going to beat up against a very weak team and in the latter it is assuming a whole TEAM is going to turn around against ONE very good bowler. In one instance the variable is one player, in the other it's eleven.

It's a very presumptuous exercise, but one I am confident in making against the Bangladeshs and Zimbabwes of the world. The statistics for these two teams are so bad that I put the burden on them to have a large enough sample against a very good bowler not the other way round. If it were a normal team, I would simply leave it alone and not be as presumptuous. But the failure rate, as a test team, as bowlers or batsmen of these two sides is so high that I am not about to treat them as if they are a normal team. I feel that is giving them the kind of respect they do not deserve.

Now you may agree with that, and you may not. But it's a standard I've always held, for everybody.
 
Last edited:

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Ya there are about a million different teams playing cricket right ? Seriously your arguments are getting more desperate by the minute. If an Asian batsman averaged 20 in Australia and 20 in SA but performed everywhere else, you would accept that he is a great bat ?

Vaas averages less than 30 against 4 teams

Lee averages less than 30 against 3 teams . I feel inclined to leave out Sri Lanka as he has only played 2 tests against them but I am sure you won't agree to that because now it is in your favour.

Winner : Vaas
He played Zimbabwe only 2 times. Had he played them more he'd have likely averaged under 30 here which would mean he'd also have 4 teams he averages less than 30 against.

Vaas averages 40+ against 1 country.
Lee averages 40+ against 4 countries!!!!

Winner : Vaas by a mile.
ICC World XI is not a country and Vaas did not face them.

Also, he only played 2 matches in Bangladesh, which is where his record breaks down. Had he played there more (or even against them more) he'd more than likely improve that record. Which would make it 2 40+ countries, yet against Pakistan, he only played them 3 times even then. This is where your argument breaks down and is tedious. Even one of Lee's averages in the 30s is Zimbabwe and he played them 2 tests!

Counting off from points "less than 30" and "more than 40" are just arbitrary. Lee has many countries where he and Vaas may both be -30 but Lee may be averaging in the low 20s while Vaas in the high 20s yet it counts for both of them depending on the category.

But this is my point and it's rather clear: Lee may average 41 against England and Vaas may average 44 against India (both clearly bad), but Lee is striknig at 63 and Vaas at 94. This is where they differ.

Both have their bad countries, both have their good countries. Lee's bests are better than Vaas' bests and his worsts are worser than Vaas' worsts...however, in the end, that is all reflected in their average and SR - where Lee, overall, is only 1 point more expensive yet 13 balls faster; meaning he made up his really bad performances with really good ones, enough so that the difference in their averages is barely anything. However, Vaas on the other hand has not struck near as fast as Lee, regardless whether he was doing well or not and for that is a way behind.

No matter what childish excuses you come up with, Vaas has clearly been the more consistent of the two and a better bowler. Keep living in your imaginary world where every Aussie is better than every other player.
Again, you are blinkered towards average only (leaving out SR) and towards small samples. I am afraid you're not going to grasp the point because you seem impervious to changing your mind on this issue.

Now to add what you've missed.

Code:
[B]SRs[/B]      [B]30s[/B]    [B]40s[/B]    [B]50s[/B]    [B]60s[/B]   [B]70s[/B]    [B]80s[/B]   [B]90s[/B]
[B]Lee[/B]       2      1      1      2     2**   1     0
[B]Vaas[/B]      1      0      2*     2     2     1     1
* one of them is Bangladesh for Vaas.
** one is Zimbabwe for Lee where he played 2 Tests.

And I could also mention the 80 SR Lee has is against 3 tests with Pakistan. So his higher SRs come against the teams he has played least (one which is a minnow). And I didn't add ICC test like you did otherwise that would be another in the 50s column for Lee. I could even mention that even 2 of the 60s Vaas has are about 1 point and change from 70s.

It's clear here that Lee strikes much faster, more often, against more teams.

Even in the averages, the countries where Lee averages highly are the ones he's played least (3 and 4 tests against Bangladesh and Pakistan), bar England.

-------

Without B/Z:

Lee


Vaas
 
Last edited:

Athlai

Not Terrible
Strange how Chaminda's figures get .5 worse when you ignore Bang and Zim but Lee's get better by .7
Chaminda's SR also gets .1 better and Lee's get 1 better.

Find it interesting that Vaas never got a 5fer against Bangers or Zim.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Strange how Chaminda's figures get .5 worse when you ignore Bang and Zim but Lee's get better by .7
Chaminda's SR also gets .1 better and Lee's get 1 better.

Find it interesting that Vaas never got a 5fer against Bangers or Zim.
It reflects that even against the minnows and, all that he played against them, Vaas was not that superlative against them on the whole.
 
Last edited:

Top