*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[_Ed_]

At the moment? Astle.

Sure he's been brilliant in the past and it's sad to say this about a player of his quality, but his recent form hasn't been up to a high enough standard for his place to be secure IMO.

 

[Loony BoB]

Fulton, personally. Why? He only averages 26.42 in tests, his high score is 75, which was his only 50 in 7 innings, which is not good enough His other scores are 17, 28, 14, 4, 36 and 11. Comparisons...

NZ vs. WI & SA
Fulton - 17, 28, 75, 14, 4, 36, 11 - one significant innings, average 26.42
Astle - 51, 13, 65, 4, 2, 50, 14 - three significant innings, average 28.42
Styris - 103, 5, 8, 17, 2, 11, 54* - two significant innings, average 33.33

Sums it up well enough for me.

EDIT: Interesting that people are keen to drop Astle on form, when he's passed 50 more times than both Fulton and Styris in the last two series.

I used Styris instead of Fleming, by the way, because the idea of dropping Fleming is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[NZTailender]

Fulton, personally. Why? He only averages 26.42 in tests, his high score is 75, which was his only 50 in 7 innings, which is not good enough His other scores are 17, 28, 14, 4, 36 and 11. Comparisons...

NZ vs. WI & SA
Fulton - 17, 28, 75, 14, 4, 36, 11 - one significant innings, average 26.42
Astle - 51, 13, 65, 4, 2, 50, 14 - three significant innings, average 28.42
Styris - 103, 5, 8, 17, 2, 11, 54* - two significant innings, average 33.33

Sums it up well enough for me.

EDIT: Interesting that people are keen to drop Astle on form, when he's passed 50 more times than both Fulton and Styris in the last two series.

I used Styris instead of Fleming, by the way, because the idea of dropping Fleming is quite frankly ridiculous.

Astle also averages just a touch under 40 batting at 5. I would like to see him go out with a bang and on his own terms, rather than being dropped. I think people underrate Astle.

 

[_Ed_]

EDIT: Interesting that people are keen to drop Astle on form, when he's passed 50 more times than both Fulton and Styris in the last two series.

Fair point, but patience with Fulton is likely to be rewarded in the long run while Astle appears to be declining a bit. His performances for Lancashire were abysmal.

But he probably does still deserve to go out on his own terms...definitely in ODIs at least.

 

[Loony BoB]

From what I've been hearing, Fulton doesn't know where his off stump is and his technique is lacking...? I guess everyone has their own opinions though.

 

[NZTailender]

Fair point, but patience with Fulton is likely to be rewarded in the long run while Astle appears to be declining a bit. His performances for Lancashire were abysmal.

But he probably does still deserve to go out on his own terms...definitely in ODIs at least.

Marshall's form for Gloucs (?) was superb in FC AND OD but it didn't do him a scrap of good in India.

Are there any FC matches in NZ before the first test?

 

[Dick Rockett]

Fulton, personally. Why? He only averages 26.42 in tests, his high score is 75, which was his only 50 in 7 innings, which is not good enough

I think making such a call on Fulton after a measly seven innings is pretty harsh.

Given that he's been one of the heaviest scorers on the domestic scene in recent times he deserves a bit more patience. The other thing is, if you drop him, who to replace him with? Someone who's scored less domestic runs? How can you expect the replacement to magically make the step up to internationals if Fulton can't?

While it's totally understandable to want to win and to want the best 11 players on the park, we have to realise that we're a very small country, and we simply don't have the players to consistently beat Australia. The team that went to the CT is more or less our best 11. We should be happy that we made the semis when a country like India didn't - after all, cricket is like a religion there and they have thousands, if not millions of potentially excellent players.

I don't enjoy watching us lose, but seriously, this is as good as we can be right now.

 

[Loony BoB]

Dude, I'm not replacing him - I was asked which of those I'd "drop" for Vincent in tests, and that's who I chose. I don't consider it dropping so much as I consider it giving Vincent his rightful place, though. If Vincent was to score one 50 in his next seven test innings I'd drop him, too. But he scored a 200 and was then kept out in favour of someone who hadn't played a test at all. Fair? Hell no.

 

[NZTailender]

Vincent since his recall in March 2004 (home series vs Australia).

7 matches, 541 runs @ 49.18

Scores run down:

27 & 4 vs Aus
63 & 24 vs Aus
2 & 40 vs Aus
0 & 52 vs SL
224 vs SL
13 vs Zim
92 vs Zim

Apart from the Zim matches, he batted at four.

If Styris is injured and won't play in the tests, then Vincent and Fulton could play in the middle order together. Though how would Fulton go batting so low?

3. Fleming
4. Vincent
5. Astle
6. Fulton

 

[Matt52]

Dude, I'm not replacing him - I was asked which of those I'd "drop" for Vincent in tests, and that's who I chose. I don't consider it dropping so much as I consider it giving Vincent his rightful place, though. If Vincent was to score one 50 in his next seven test innings I'd drop him, too. But he scored a 200 and was then kept out in favour of someone who hadn't played a test at all. Fair? Hell no.

Good call. Vincent is a no.4, possibly 5, depending on who else we have to fit in there.
Vincent shouldnt be opening. Everytime you see an NZ scoresheet with Vincent's name first, it just looks wrong.

I think its best to pick the sure things first in a test side....and put them in their best position or the best position for the side. Fit the "maybe's " in around them.

1. ?
2. ?
3. Fleming
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. McCullum
8. Vettori
9. ?
10.?
11. Bond.

There we have it...all the certainties in the NZ test cricket team.

Who are the next best batsmen?????. The next best deserves preference of position. I think the next best is Vincent. He has more talent than anyone else possibly bar Fleming, has a bit of experience now and so should be given his prefered spot, which is no.4.

 

[TT Boy]

Good call. Vincent is a no.4, possibly 5, depending on who else we have to fit in there.
Vincent shouldnt be opening. Everytime you see an NZ scoresheet with Vincent's name first, it just looks wrong.

I think its best to pick the sure things first in a test side....and put them in their best position or the best position for the side. Fit the "maybe's " in around them.

1. ?
2. ?
3. Fleming
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?
7. McCullum
8. Vettori
9. ?
10.?
11. Bond.

There we have it...all the certainties in the NZ test cricket team.

Who are the next best batsmen?????. The next best deserves preference of position. I think the next best is Vincent. He has more talent than anyone else possibly bar Fleming, has a bit of experience now and so should be given his prefered spot, which is no.4.

Franklin to open, can not be any worse than Fulton, Papps et cetera and because he is only useful with the new ball (when it's swinging) it won't be much of a burden for him.

 

[Matt52]

Franklin to open, can not be any worse than Fulton, Papps et cetera and because he is only useful with the new ball (when it's swinging) it won't be much of a burden for him.

Its a sign of the times in NZ cricket that that actually sounds like a good idea. Hes slow, boring, plays about one cricket stroke per hour and bowls a bit. What else do you need to be an NZ opener.

 

[Macka]

Lots of questions need to be answered by the selectors. Our complete lack of Test cricket doesn't help, either.

Thoughts on McCullum opening in Tests? Sangakkara has managed batting high in the order. (I'm not against the idea completely, but we're obviously desperate enough. I'm against the idea of him opening in ODIs, however.) I believe Vincent has gone on record saying he no longer wants to keep wicket, and I think it's a poor idea given McCullum's form with the gloves and obvious, if not lacking in output, batting ability.

I've said all along I'm against the idea of two new players being openers, whether it's J. Marshall and Cumming or Papps and How. Even H. Marshall and Fulton, both out of form in the international game and not guaranteed selections, are poor choices together in my opinion. Even in the ODI game I think we should stagger our senior players in the line up. For example:

Fleming
Vincent
Taylor/whoever
Astle
Styris
....

Just something simple like not having our two best batsmen (Fleming and Astle) in the first three. In Tests I believe we should do the same, although putting that into practice will be difficult. Thought about it for 15 minutes now, and I have no idea who would even open for us in Tests.

 

[_Ed_]

I think we need to somehow have room for Papps, like it or not he's probably the best specialist opener we have in the longer form of the game at the moment. Who makes way for him I have no idea.

 

[Bahnz]

New Zealand needs to stop trying to force middle order batsmen into the opening role. Fulton, Marshall, Vincent et al. are not openers. They will always get out cheaply. Fleming could fulfill one opening spot, his average there isn't too bad (about 35 I think), though it may be a waste given how well he's been playing at number 3.

The other option is to find the best domestic openers, and give them a run. The list isn't very encouraging. Papps, How and Bell are probably the 3 best options, which really doesn't say much for our strength in opening batsmen.

 

[_Ed_]

McIntosh is another who has looked good at times, but I'm not overly confident in his potential as a test opener.

 

[Matt52]

I think Jamie How, looked to be the best of the potential openers. I just remeber watching Papps play in South Africa and really struggle. His domestic average is only in the low 30's which may surprise some people(Papps, not How).

Vincent should be at no.4. Sometimes i wonder what his record would nhave been like if he had batted in the middle order for his whole career, much better I think.

As for the other opening spot, I think Papps, Fulton, Marshall, are around but I would go for a bit of a left feild choice in Rob Nicol, from Auckland. I know, I know, he is a middle order player being asked to open again, but Justin Langer was a middle order player, Sehwag was also, it can sometimes work.

I think he has a good back foot technique, is not really a stroke maker, and often plays like an opener, a little bit dour. He does have talent though and really,, what else do we have to lose?.

 

[meatspx]

I'm not sure about Astle in tests, the WC will surely be his swan song and we gain nothing in keeping him in the test side other than giving him more time in the middle.

Fulton has a great domestic record and needs to be given another chance (some other time), and yes I agree we need a specialist opener with Fleming. Imagine Vincent trying to face Vass on a green wicket, he wouldn't even get his bat halfway in front on his frontpad before he is LBW!

Whatever happens I just hope Taylor is given a chance & Vincent doesn't open. We can't keep on playing the same batsmen who are out of form (a side with Astle, Vincent, Marshall & Fulton in it is just too dodgy).

My side would be:
Fleming
(Not sure.... How?)
Styris
Vincent
Taylor
Oram
McCullum
Vetorri
Franklin (a must for the test side, fringe squad player for the ODIs)
Mills
Bond

Fulton is a middle order batsman so I wouldn't have him in the side. Oram can bowl third change for NZ in NZ, but long-term he should be a all-rounder as the 4th option.

Oram has had back injuries, he's tall, he only started seriously concentrating on his bowling when he wsa 17/18. It's not a matter of 'if', but rather than 'when' where it comes to having another back problem. Plus seeing Styris bowl in the first morning of a test is not a good tactic (it's happened recently, can't remember). Imagine Collingwood bowling first morning of the Ashes.

 

[James]

I think Bond must retire from Test cricket and first class cricket if we're to see the best out of him.

ODI cricket is what counts for New Zealand Cricket and the less cricket he plays up until the World Cup the better it is in my mind.

And let's face it, the bulk of the New Zealand public are not the least bit interested in how we do in Test cricket.

 

[Dick Rockett]

I think Bond must retire from Test cricket and first class cricket if we're to see the best out of him.

ODI cricket is what counts for New Zealand Cricket and the less cricket he plays up until the World Cup the better it is in my mind.

And let's face it, the bulk of the New Zealand public are not the least bit interested in how we do in Test cricket.

I'm disappointed to hear you say that, James. The bulk of the NZ sporting public doesn't care about cricket, full stop. In my experience, most cricket fans here consider tests to be infinitely more important than ODIs, which are generally thought of as a bit of a lark. Important, but not approaching the status of tests.