*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[Matt52]

I am still living in the fairy land where Hamish Marshall can regain some form. And he cant make the team in the middle order so the only spot for him is as an opener.....

Also, who really cares that much about ANOTHER test series against Sri Lanka..we have played them so many times, recently, its just getting a little boring.....I am beginning to be able to pronounce their names correctly. SO, I think we should use this as a bit of a talent search exercise before the world cup. Last nights effort showed that some of our current team are not good enough against the aussies, I am not saying we should change the whole team, but lets find at least one more player.


H. Marshall
P Fulton.
S. Fleming
L.Vincent
J. Ryder/ R Taylor
J. Oram
B. McCullum
D. Vettori
J. Franklin
R. Sherlock/ M. Gillespie
S.Bond

I think Vincent should be in the middle order. No 4 is his best spot. He is not an opener in either form of the game. Another case of NZ destroying talent in order to keep the average performers in the middle order in Styris and Astle. Styris and Astle are good in one dayers but HOW MANY OTHER COUNTRIES WOULD HAVE BATSMEN AVERAGING LESS THAN 40 OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME AS FIRST CHOICE PICKS?????????. in a test team.

I think both Astle and Styris should be replaced with someone with the potential to do better. L. Vincent looks a much better player in the middle order, and he should be given a consistent run in that spot as an apology to making him bat out of position all the time........ How long do you think Styris would last as an opener in Test matches????, or Astle???????? not very long I would think.......

The next best option in the middle order is J. Ryder. His first class record is pretty good so he should be given a go to see what he can do before the world cup. Taylor's first class record is not that good but as an experience building exercise before the world cup it might be useful.

I think Bond needs a fast bowling partner.....I dont think you can go into a test with only one genuine strike bowler.....Steve Waugh said that tests are all about getting twenty wickets, so I dont think we can choose just one bowler that can bowl fast yorkers and such....even if this new guy gets hit around a bit, give him some time...Franklin is good but we need another quick. Fleming,on the recent tour to SA, when asked what was the difference between the two sides, he replied " 10kph".

 

[_Ed_]

Actually I've often thought Styris would handle opening in tests and that there are plenty of worse options. He just seems to me to have the right technique for it. But he obviously doesn't want to, so he won't.

 

[Macka]

Actually I've often thought Styris would handle opening in tests and that there are plenty of worse options. He just seems to me to have the right technique for it. But he obviously doesn't want to, so he won't.

Completely disagree. Styris takes a long time to get in, and he looks pretty average until he does. He's prone to jabbing at the ball outside of off early in his innings.

Although he does have a few hundreds batting at 3...

Nah. Bad idea in my opinion.

 

[Macka]

What's happened to Sherlock, Davis, Mark Gillespie and all those young fast bowlers discussed a few months ago? I heard Sherlock in particular was very injury-prone and hardly got a match.

Sherlock and Davis are nobodies hyped up by members of this forum. They've played about 15 games combined for their provinces. I've never once heard their names mentioned by anyone reputable.

Gillespie is promising, and he was in the Trophy squad but didn't get a game.

 

[Arjun]

Gillespie is right up there alongisde Michael Mason but bowls a bit faster.

I've seen Mason in a practice match here in India, and he didn't seem too fast. He was a reserve bowler who didn't make the playing XI in the tour. Tell me Gillespie isn't that slow...

As for opening the innings (another highly debatable issue), let's keep the same pair for both Tests and ODI's, shall we? Some mention Hamish Marshall, but if he's struggling at three or four, where he's done well in the past, how will promoting him to open help? Maybe they can have Fleming and Astle open regularly as in ODI's, but they've put that aside now and are not too regular. The best option would be to go back to Papps and How (or Cumming or maybe Richard Jones, these are names that come to mind instantly) for both Tests and ODI's, and freeze that pair for a long time.

 

[Arjun]

What are your comments on Lou Vincent wicketkeeping? He can then bat in the middle-order, and given complaints about Scott Styris, they can drop him and promote Vettori to Number Eight and Jacob Oram can be your Number Seven/stock seamer, followed by three bowlers. There's something to think about: what do you do when you've got as many as four bowlers who are more than useful batsmen for their FC teams?

 

[_Ed_]

Completely disagree. Styris takes a long time to get in, and he looks pretty average until he does. He's prone to jabbing at the ball outside of off early in his innings.

Although he does have a few hundreds batting at 3...

Nah. Bad idea in my opinion.

Fair enough. His best test innings though (and one of the best innings I've seen by a New Zealand batsman) of 170 against SA started with NZ at 4-2, and I thought it was a perfect display of top-order batting against a very tough new-ball attack.

 

[Loony BoB]

Fair enough. His best test innings though (and one of the best innings I've seen by a New Zealand batsman) of 170 against SA started with NZ at 4-2, and I thought it was a perfect display of top-order batting against a very tough new-ball attack.

Styris bats at #3 best - averaging 142 over four innings and never once out for less than 100 against the likes of India, South Africa and England.

My ideal side would be...

Fleming
Papps
Styris
Vincent
Astle
Oram
Vettori
McCullum
Franklin
Gillespie / Patel
Bond

Yes, Fleming suffered when opening against Australia. But who doesn't?

 

[NZTailender]

Yes, Fleming suffered when opening against Australia. But who doesn't?

Yeah, true that. Averaged 40 in that position against England and the other match (aside from Australia) he was not out 69. Could be worth a shot in this home series.

 

[Retox]

We either play how/papps and make them open (drop marshall + astle)
or play one of them (papps for me) and have McCullum open Marshall/Fulton if they are to play need to bat in the middle order.


EDIT: Whats everyones thoughts on Oram in the ODI team now? any stats for this ICC Champs for him?

 

[_Ed_]

What are yoru comments on Lou Vincent wicketkeeping? He can then bat in the middle-order, and given complaints about Scott Styris, they can drop him and promote Vettori to Number Eight and Jacob Oram can be your Number Seven/stock seamer, followed by three bowlers. There's something to think about: what do you do when you've got as many as four bowlers who are more than useful batsmen for their FC teams?

I think it'd be pretty ridiculous to drop McCullum. That's just my opinion though of course.

 

[Loony BoB]

Completely agree that there's no reason to drop McCullum and I don't think we'll benefit from it at all.

EDIT: I've always thought Oram should be in the ODI side, regardless of how well he bats. He's rated #15 in the world, after all, in that respect.

 

[Arjun]

Completely agree that there's no reason to drop McCullum and I don't think we'll benefit from it at all.

EDIT: I've always thought Oram should be in the ODI side, regardless of how well he bats. He's rated #15 in the world, after all, in that respect.

I think it'd be pretty ridiculous to drop McCullum. That's just my opinion though of course.

Then how will you fit Lou Vincent into the team? He's clearly not an opener, and unless you have one of Fleming or Astle or even both opening regularly (we're talking regular openers, not test/ODI specialists), he won't find a place in the team. One may even consider dropping one of the middle-order stalwarts to accommodate Vincent, but it's risky, and it's up to you whether you want to do that.

 

[NZTailender]

Completely agree that there's no reason to drop McCullum and I don't think we'll benefit from it at all.

EDIT: I've always thought Oram should be in the ODI side, regardless of how well he bats. He's rated #15 in the world, after all, in that respect.

Yeah, would be foolish to drop McCullum. I'm torn because I think he has the ability to be a quality top order player yet he's vital for us down the order.


Oram is averaging pretty good with the ball regardless of his ODI average, which is somewhat 'ruined' by the fact he comes in in the slog overs. I think he deserves a bit of a promotion, but again, he's valueable to us down the order.

 

[Loony BoB]

Then how will you fit Lou Vincent into the team? He's clearly not an opener, and unless you have one of Fleming or Astle or even both opening regularly (we're talking regular openers, not test/ODI specialists), he won't find a place in the team. One may even consider dropping one of the middle-order stalwarts to accommodate Vincent, but it's risky, and it's up to you whether you want to do that.

Easy. Open with Fleming. Or, you know, have some squad rotation going, playing them by form, like they do now. It's not like you have to play the same XI every time. Look at football sides and their midfield - they can't play every player every day, so they quite simply don't.

 

[_Ed_]

Then how will you fit Lou Vincent into the team? He's clearly not an opener, and unless you have one of Fleming or Astle or even both opening regularly (we're talking regular openers, not test/ODI specialists), he won't find a place in the team. One may even consider dropping one of the middle-order stalwarts to accommodate Vincent, but it's risky, and it's up to you whether you want to do that.

That's a good question, but I'd rather leave Vincent out altogether than drop McCullum.

 

[NZTailender]

Then how will you fit Lou Vincent into the team? He's clearly not an opener, and unless you have one of Fleming or Astle or even both opening regularly (we're talking regular openers, not test/ODI specialists), he won't find a place in the team. One may even consider dropping one of the middle-order stalwarts to accommodate Vincent, but it's risky, and it's up to you whether you want to do that.

He's best suited to the number 4 position in tests, IMO. I think Styris holds that spot at the moment?

 

[NZTailender]

That's a good question, but I'd rather leave Vincent out altogether than drop McCullum.

I don't know how we got onto the subject of Vincent keeping but I do believe he needs to be in the test side despite his recent ODI failings.

We managed to get him into the side at number 4 the last time Sri Lanka played, and he scored 200 odd. And then he was asked to open in Zimbabwe, IIRC.

 

[Arjun]

I got the idea of Vincent wicketkeeping because he's often played as a part-time wicketkeeper, just like McCullum before the home series against the Indians.

Anyway, which of the middle-order regulars would you drop? And why? Let's leave out Hamish Marshall for now; we've all decided to keep him out, so we're left with Fleming, Astle and Fulton, who's just made the team.

 

[NZTailender]

Astle will probably retire after the world cup, so that'll make things a lot easier.