*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[nzfan]

There's no contest about who our best batter ever is, Kane that is:

Humility - tick
Score under all conditions - tick
Lead from the front - tick
Nearly win the world cup although not even rated and particularly overseas - tick. The previous finals we made in WC was played at our home and we knew the conditions like back of the hand.
Winning overseas - Tick, we've won in Dubai, SL from memory under Kane. Aussie was a bit of a disaster but we'll go all right the next time around whenever it is.
Amazing ethics - tick
No controversy whatsover - tick
Maintains terrific game spirit - tick
Among the best in the world - tick
Not only scores his runs but knows how to extract runs from others in the team and puts big partnerships - tick. For eg. if Taylor gets 150 and Kane fails there is a chance we could still get bowled out for like 280 or 300. If Kane scores 150 he will blunt every bowler in the attack, tires them out and the rest of the batting line up feasts thanks to Kane.
Selfless captain and a player - tick

No one including Fleming has had a CV like this and I don't think we are going to get another player like this in 50 years to come. Sir Richard Hadlee was all of this but was a bit controversial and sometimes had fair bit of tiff with the management/establishment.

 

[Athlai]

Trust a kiwi to put humility number 1

 

[nzfan]

Trust a kiwi to put humility number 1

You need that as a basic requirement, a good role model ensures we produce more champions in future even if not as good as him but like him. Playing the right way.

 

[thierry henry]

It’s interesting, I’ve heard so many people ‘in the know’ talk about how talented Vincent was. Personally I never saw it and I’m not just talking about his results, I’m talking about how he looked at the crease at international level.

Also he always gets talked about as a wasted talent who got mucked around, yet my distinct recollection is almost the opposite - a pretty hopeless ODI player who got waaaay too many chances primarily because of a perception that he looked the part.

Maybe he could’ve had a more defined role in test cricket, but he never really put up the performances to actually deserve an extended run.

 

[Binkley]

It’s interesting, I’ve heard so many people ‘in the know’ talk about how talented Vincent was. Personally I never saw it and I’m not just talking about his results, I’m talking about how he looked at the crease at international level.

Also he always gets talked about as a wasted talent who got mucked around, yet my distinct recollection is almost the opposite - a pretty hopeless ODI player who got waaaay too many chances primarily because of a perception that he looked the part.

Maybe he could’ve had a more defined role in test cricket, but he never really put up the performances to actually deserve an extended run.

I remember his 100 and 50 on debut against Australia at Perth, where he played beautifully. I can still picture some of those swashbuckling drives he played in the first innings. He was mucked around a huge amount, starting with that debut innings (if I recall, it was the first time he had ever opened). Because they had seen him score quickly, the coaching team encouraged him to “play his natural game” - which meant he started playing what other people thought was his natural game. It was a slow motion train wreck, and I still feel sad at how such a promising career was derailed.

 

[thierry henry]

I remember his 100 and 50 on debut against Australia at Perth, where he played beautifully. I can still picture some of those swashbuckling drives he played in the first innings. He was mucked around a huge amount, starting with that debut innings (if I recall, it was the first time he had ever opened). Because they had seen him score quickly, the coaching team encouraged him to “play his natural game” - which meant he started playing what other people thought was his natural game. It was a slow motion train wreck, and I still feel sad at how such a promising career was derailed.

But you’ve just said yourself that his best moment was 1 test batting out of position. When did he actually display the ability to play well in his ‘correct’ position and at his ‘natural’ tempo? It all feels like a myth with nothing behind it. He never had any great success playing any particular role in any format at international or domestic level. In fact, his most concerted success was as a slogging ODI opener, yet you’ve just said that wasn’t his game. As a middle order ODI player (in his first iteration as an international player) he got countless opportunities and was absolutely hopeless.

 

[thierry henry]

Anyway this is all rather dated debate...next let’s discuss how ineffective Dan Vettori was as a test bowler

 

[Binkley]

I dunno, I think Mark Greatbatch had a similar career arc. When both appeared they had success based on being technically correct and having some very attractive strokes but within a very limited range (mostly on the off side). Then both were converted into ”attacking” players who usually perished to some ugly legside heave.

Edit: cross post, happy to leave this conversation here.

 

[thierry henry]

I dunno, I think Mark Greatbatch had a similar career arc. When both appeared they had success based on being technically correct and having some very attractive strokes but within a very limited range (mostly on the off side). Then both were converted into ”attacking” players who usually perished to some ugly legside heave.

Edit: cross post, happy to leave this conversation here.

But aside from literally 1 test, Vincent just never really had any initial success. He stunk it up in ODIs, was used as a makeshift opener in tests (when he never really had the numbers on the board to earn selection in the first place) and unsurprisingly was eventually found out, and all the while he continued to be a poor ODI player.

The slogging opener version you refer to was several years later and was the only version that actually had any success!

There may have been a decent middle order test batsman in there somewhere - he made that 200 against Sri Lanka - but as far as I can recall he simply got dropped from that role because he failed at that too.

 

[Binkley]

But aside from literally 1 test, Vincent just never really had any initial success. He stunk it up in ODIs, was used as a makeshift opener in tests (when he never really had the numbers on the board to earn selection in the first place) and unsurprisingly was eventually found out, and all the while he continued to be a poor ODI player.

The slogging opener version you refer to was several years later and was the only version that actually had any success!

There may have been a decent middle order test batsman in there somewhere - he made that 200 against Sri Lanka - but as far as I can recall he simply got dropped from that role because he failed at that too.

Maybe. It was a long time ago, I was young, and I used to get pissed off John Bracewell as coach a lot. So some of my recollection might be a bit fanciful. But happy to leave the discussion to focus on more recent events.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

In 23 tests Vincent batted 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 9 ... averaged bang on 40 in the 11 tests he played when not opening. If you look at his innings by innings he moves around heaps apart from a few tests in a row opening ... a role I don't think he was ever suited for (although hundreds in Aus and India are a better return than most of our openers have managed). He often got moved mid-series or mid-test. Must've been so difficult to deal with.

But if you can't see he had quality there I dunno what to say.

 

[Moss]

But you’ve just said yourself that his best moment was 1 test batting out of position. When did he actually display the ability to play well in his ‘correct’ position and at his ‘natural’ tempo? It all feels like a myth with nothing behind it. He never had any great success playing any particular role in any format at international or domestic level. In fact, his most concerted success was as a slogging ODI opener, yet you’ve just said that wasn’t his game. As a middle order ODI player (in his first iteration as an international player) he got countless opportunities and was absolutely hopeless.

Not quite correct, there was more behind it. His best moment (and highest score by far) was the utlimately matchwinning 224 batting at no.4 against Sri Lanka in the final test of an injury ravaged summer (2005 - he had been called up for the Aus series earlier as a replacement and fronted up okay at no.4 which was the position he later stated he was most comfortable in). He was next asked to open for 2 tests in Zimbabwe and then dropped because he wanted to go back to the middle order and Bracewell would have none of it ("you bat where we tell you to"). I think he played all of one more test against South Africa in 2007.

Debating the actual merits of Vincent may be a futile exercise but for a side like NZ to be messing about with a player who had just scored a double century was quite something. Then again there was a precedent (Sinclair).

 

[nzfan]

Lou was a seriously good player no doubt about that. Sinclair wasn't bad either, one of the best on the back foot through covers. I remember vividly sir Richard was the selector then and one sentence from him about Sinclair needing to work on his technique when Sinclair was going through a trot meant he was dumped.

I'm not saying it was Richard Hadlee that was responsible for dropping of Sinclair in the long run but that public opinion of his did some damage.

Lou was a good enough player and a gun fielder but like mentioned above he was stuffed around quite a bit. Bracewell was way too fickle. He did some weird things with the team. There was a time when he used to have the team members sit around and criticize each other with no holds bar.

This didn't go well with any of the players. Astle a quiet dude just moved on and other stronger characters stood up and rebelled.

It was a toxic environment and players never felt in our playing under immense pressure. Either they fought, hung on and didn't enjoy playing or they quietly left the scene.

Astle had at least couple more years in him. Was a treat to watch. What a player...

 

[The Hutt Rec]

They actually showed the players doing that after an ODI or day of a test on the cricket show on sky way back in the day. It was absolutely brutal, seemed really tense and pointless. Mainly seemed to be batsman blaming bowlers for not bowling well enough, bowlers blaming batsmen for not batting and fielding well enough.

I’d have announced my retirement after one game if I had to go through that again haha. Must have killed the team spirit stone dead.

 

[Days of Grace]

Lou was a seriously good player no doubt about that. Sinclair wasn't bad either, one of the best on the back foot through covers. I remember vividly sir Richard was the selector then and one sentence from him about Sinclair needing to work on his technique when Sinclair was going through a trot meant he was dumped.

I'm not saying it was Richard Hadlee that was responsible for dropping of Sinclair in the long run but that public opinion of his did some damage.

Lou was a good enough player and a gun fielder but like mentioned above he was stuffed around quite a bit. Bracewell was way too fickle. He did some weird things with the team. There was a time when he used to have the team members sit around and criticize each other with no holds bar.

This didn't go well with any of the players. Astle a quiet dude just moved on and other stronger characters stood up and rebelled.

It was a toxic environment and players never felt in our playing under immense pressure. Either they fought, hung on and didn't enjoy playing or they quietly left the scene.

Astle had at least couple more years in him. Was a treat to watch. What a player...

No I think Astle was basically done by 2007. We would have been happy to have his experience in the World Cup but his record in World Cups was not great.

Fleming was a major loss retiring at the age of 33/34. We should have never taken the test captaincy away from him.

Parore also retired one season too early. We had Robbie Hart for a season before McCullum was ready.

 

[thierry henry]

Astle and Fleming were 35 tbf which is a fairly standard age to retire. Parore bowing out at 31 was a bit random.

 

[_Ed_]

Parore also retired one season too early. We had Robbie Hart for a season before McCullum was ready.

Hart didn't do a terrible job IIRC - not great with the bat, but his keeping seemed dependable.

 

[Days of Grace]

Astle and Fleming were 35 tbf which is a fairly standard age to retire. Parore bowing out at 31 was a bit random.

Fleming turned 35 in 2008. I felt he could have gone on at least one more season to ease the transition. I remember him being in great touch too during the England home series before unsurprisingly getting out between 50 and 100.

We took a very green batting lineup to England in 2008.

 

[Moss]

Fleming turned 35 in 2008. I felt he could have gone on at least one more season to ease the transition. I remember him being in great touch too during the England home series before unsurprisingly getting out between 50 and 100.

We took a very green batting lineup to England in 2008.

There was an article just yesterday about how Fleming was asked about his retirement and he said he had anxiety attacks during the second test of the home series and decided he was done.

Fully agree that he should have been allowed to oversee the transition, but I think he was completely fed up with how more and more of decision making power was taken away from him with each year. That England tour coincided with the first ever IPL season and he saw a real opportunity there, played for CSK that season and went on to coach the franchise. I think in hindsight he has no regrets about that decision.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I'm really interested in when we next pick an ODI side.

At the moment our first choice side is something like:

Guptill
Nicholls
Williamson
Taylor
Latham
Neesham
CDG
Santner
Henry
Ferguson
Boult

But now we've also got the following (plus more):
Munro,Ravindra, Conway, Young, Blundell, Philips, Seifert, Chapman, Mitchell, Smith, Sodhi, Jamieson, Southee, Kuggleijn, D Bracewell, Duffy, Milne?, Tickner, Bennett...

Who misses out?