UK vs World / Jayasuriya

[scorpio]

well...get some cough medicine...and come back with some thing intelligent...instead of just seconding Marc's lies..

THis dumb and dumber show keeps moving along with lies, made up quotes and coughs..heh

 

[Neil Pickup]

Okay, let's see some statistics:

Jayasuriya's ODI Batting team-by-team

48.20 Bangladesh
38.00 India
34.15 Pakistan
32.42 England
32.38 New Zealand
29.95 Zimbabwe
29.33 Kenya
28.36 West Indies
23.70 South Africa
19.00 Australia

SA and Aus have been consistently the best ODI sides over the last few years - against these he has struggled. He doesn't have a ton against Aus, SA or WI.

In matches lost he only averages 20.71 as opposed to 39.66 in wins. Suggests that when he fails, then SA struggle.

Bowling-wise, he has only taken more than 12 wickets in Asian countries - spin-friendly pitches. I daresay that if any other part time spinner (Lehmann, Bevan, Vaughan, Gayle, Afridi, Tendulkar...) was given the overs he had when he had he would take just as many wickets.

 

[Gotchya]

Hey you make it look sooo bad for pakistan

jayasuriya has played Aus 25 times and South africa 27 times, where as he has batted 64 times against pakistan would make a difference i guess , plus he's got two tons against pak(out of 12).

 

[scorpio]

Neil: I was talkin abt Jayasuriya's bowling. The stats you posted are abt his batting.

As far as i know they are two different things...am i right ?

I guess the dumb and dumber show revolved around jayasuriya's bowling and economy rate. Now that i have shown that your arguments were worth crap you have migrated to his batting...nice way of arguing...

 

[scorpio]

But since you insist..some "illuminating statistics" about gilly..not a whole lot better than jayasuriya i reckon..

SA: 27.43
India: 36.74
ENg: 26.25
WI: 32.00

SL: 58.88

Amazingly he averages poorly against a "quality" SA attack. (Though considering how the SA have been mentally defeated he should average real high...but oh logic is not for u)

Against swinging conditions in england and pacy conditions at home he sucks..haha. Jayasuriya averages higher...surprising

Against one of the weakest bowling attacks (India i mean ) he still averages less than ganguly.

Againt WI whose bowling sucks and after walkin all over them he still averages just 3 points more than him.

Against SL....(Boy grt bowling attack..lol) he averages highest..

So shall we say gilly is overrated? Go figure

 

[marc71178]

Where have i said he is not a allrounder? Show me a quote ?

I will refer you to a post you made about 36 hours ago:

He is a batsman who can bowl

Now I don't know what you call an all rounder, but the generally accepted view is it is someone who can get into a side on the basis of more than one discipline on it's own.

 

[Neil Pickup]

If you look, there was a paragraph of info about Sanath's bowling at the bottom.

I was also adding that his batting is overrated. And when have I ever mentioned Gilchrist? I rate him as a batsman as Jayasuriya's approximate equal.

 

[scorpio]

Now I don't know what you call an all rounder

you answer that question immediately. Check Below

but the generally accepted view is it is someone who can get into a side on the basis of more than one discipline on it's own.

And i said jayasuriya is a

batsman who can bowl

Are those two similar statements? If you think so i suggest you take a few english lessons.

If we go by your standards then the following players can be called as allrounders.

Hick, Ganguly,sachin,Salim malik, Aravinda Desilva....and so on.

Are they allrounders ?

A allrounder is one who is expected to perform either role consistently in most matches. Jayasuriya's bowling is more like a bonus.

hope that helps. Now are u going to retract your statement that he gets only tailenders?

[Edited on 8/31/02 by scorpio]

 

[scorpio]

Neil i didnt understand your post abt his bowling. May be you could word it better and post some stats..then i will see how it goes...

Cheeers

 

[Neil Pickup]

Righto...

The only countries that Jayasuriya has taken 12 or more ODI wickets in are:

Sri Lanka
India
Pakistan
United Arab Emirates (Sharjah)

All of these provide surface that are very favourable to spinners, so any other "batsman who can bowl", for example

Hick
Lehmann
Bevan
Vaughan
Gayle
Afridi
Tendulkar
Blackwell

Could have probably taken a similar amount of wickets to him, if he bowled the same overs as Sanath in the same situation.

i.e. Jayasuriya is little better as a bowler to the above eight.

 

[scorpio]

Certainly i agree. That is the point i am making. He is a bowler suited for subcontinent conditions and to a lesser extent his batting too. Obviosly he will take wickets and be effective only in the subcontinent.

So how can he be overrated ? Ealham is a bowler who is effective in england. Shall we go pick a issue for not performing is test matches in the subcontinent?

Wht we have to recognize is he uses himself effectively instead of thinking too much of himself.

By the same coin ganguly and tendulkar dont bowl too much..coz they are just change bowlers.

ANd you two in ur eagerness to trash him...did not think a lot abt the fact that he bowls a lot at the death...he is bound to pick up wickets and give runs...

makes sense?

 

[Neil Pickup]

So how can he be overrated?

Depends how highly he's rated in the first place.

This is going down a side road very fast and we've lost what the initial argument was...

 

[scorpio]

Depends how highly he's rated in the first place.

This is going down a side road very fast and we've lost what the initial argument was...

Are we avoiding the argument here ..heh

Incase you are confused...the original argument was

1. jayasuriya is not overrated - Just misunderstood by a couple of ignorant posters.

2. Jayasuriya doesnt get only tailender wickets

3. His economy rate is affected by him bowling at the death.

I reckon we are still on the right path.

When someone comes with a dumb statement and then is proven wrong by sheer weight of truth ....the intelligent and mature thing to do is...accept one's mistake.

Not shirk the issue. Not being harsh here mate..just my opinion.

 

[marc71178]

Right, so ask to me to show where you have said he's NOT an all-rounder.

I do, and you say I need to take English lessons?

I quite clearly showed you what you claimed you hadn't done, as requested.

As for his bowling, I would like to point out this was talking about as captain, he brings himself on when the tail are in.

Since you're obsessed with stats, I reproduce, using your definitions of top-order, middle-order and tail-enders, the distribution of Jayasuriya wicket's he's taken since becoming captain.

A total of 70 wickets:
Top-order - 13 (18.6%)
Middle-order - 32 (45.7%)
Tail-enders - 25 (35.7%)

And for Test comparisons

A total of 44 wickets:
Top-order - 9 (20.4%)
Middle-order - 21 (47.7%)
Tail-enders - 14 (31.8%)

 

[onemangang]

Jayasuria is a batting allrounder, someone who has taken 220+ wkts.Many regular bowlers have a high percentage of wkts of tailenders.

 

[scorpio]

Right, so ask to me to show where you have said he's NOT an all-rounder.

I do, and you say I need to take English lessons?

I quite clearly showed you what you claimed you hadn't done, as requested.

Trouble understanding comprehension?

I said he is a batsman who can bowl not a allrounder.

Just like Hick or Ganguly or Sehwag.

You talk as if i cried from rooftops that Jayasuriya is a allrounder. Twisting quotes to suit urself or trying to create new meanings for words doesnt show a lot of intelligence...oh wait you wouldnt know what intelligence means.

May i Suggest www.dictionary.com ?


Right you have produced stats. WHen i put down any stats..I HAVE A POINT TO MAKE. Just random stats dont tell anthing..except that you know how to cut and paste.

You say he brings on himself only when tailenders come on.

I SAY HE DOESNT. AND I POST STATS WHICH SHOW CLEARLY.

Then You twist it coming up with a new argument saying you meant it during his captaincy. And finally decide to post some stats. Which actually make my point seem correct

For a bowler who is CRAP,SELFISH according to you .... he gets only 35.7% of tailender wickets. (WE WERE TALKIN ABT ONEDAYS).But even ur test stats prove you wrong.

Here is a clip of one of my posts from a other thread. The top order wickets/ total number of wickets (Percentage)

1. gough - 159/228 - 69.7
2. donald - 218/325 - 67.07
3. ambrose - 269/405 - 66.4
4. mcgrat - 235/359 - 65.2
5. mcdermott - 190/291 - 65.2
6. srinath - 136/210 - 64.7
7. kapil - 280/434 - 64.5
8. marshall - 238/376 -63.2
9. imran - 228/362 - 62.9
10. waqar - 208/332 - 62.5
11. pollock - 155/253 - 61.2
12. hadlee - 262/431 - 60.7
13. walsh - 311/519 - 59.9
14. botham - 229/383 - 59.7
15. Wasim - 235/414 - 56.7

You can see for a selfish,crap bowler. He compares quite favorably.

Here is a tip: When you post stats have a point to make.

Oh and you said something abt Gilchrist...think i wrote something abt him after that..but you seem to ignore it...care to explain to me ?


[Edited on 9/1/02 by scorpio]

 

[marc71178]

I have just posted stats which show that sunce he's been captain he has taken twice as many tail-enders as top order players - which is something I have argued several times - yet I'm still wrong?

How, may I ask, can it be that my stats (which actually relate to the point I was making) are wrong, yet your stats (which were irrelevant in respect of the point I was making) are right.

Your stats relate to his whole career - he has only been captain for the last 2 or 3 years - so he can't have "brought himself on" when he wasn't in charge.

I was talking about since he's been in charge, so surely stats relating to when he's been captain are more relevant than those which talk about his career?

 

[scorpio]

If you ever read your own posts..u will be surprised to see how senseless and illogical they are.

I have just posted stats which show that sunce he's been captain he has taken twice as many tail-enders as top order players - which is something I have argued several times - yet I'm still wrong?

Yeah ..u are very wrong. You can easily understand if u read my previous posts after you remove your tinted glasses.

Let me explain once again.


So lets do a little math here:
Percentage of tailender wickets before cap : 21.7
Percentage of tailender wickets before cap : 35.7
Percentage of tailender wickets Overall : 26.1


Let me tell you what that tells me. For a part time spinner who bowls during the 30-50 over period he has only 1/3rd of his total wickets as tailenders.

It also tells me that he doesnt over estimate his skills. You could argue whole day that he should probably open the bowling. But it wouldnt make any sense.

Get it...he wont get into any team including srilanka on the strength of his bowling. But he will get into quite a few teams on the strength of his batting alone.

That makes him a batsman who can bowl not a frickin allrounder. ( A utility player..a la Astle may be)

He is not a big spinner of the ball...nor does he have a huge flight. He fires the ball from wide of the crease to the stumps. SOme thing very handy in the slog overs. I would rather respect him for understanding what he is good at and not overdoing the stuff.

Let me do a small recap of ur posts..might help ya..

U say he takes tailenders wickets, sucks as captain, cannot even be compared to gilchrist and tell me I WROTE HE WAS AN ALLROUNDER.

But each time i counter an allegation you go silent abt it and come up with more twisted stuff.I would be interested in what u write after this.

 

[scorpio]

May be will you now say he was the worlds best left armer before he became captain ?

Ok...let me go by your own logic..

[marc mode]

Why doesnt Glenn Mcgrath have any stumpings ? I think it is coz that dumbarse bowls too fast for the keeper to stand up. How dare he ?

Why doesnt shane warne break anyones bones ? Coz he is lazy to bowl fast..Fatso

WHy didnt Don bradman score a century against bangladesh ? Coz he was afraid and retired before they started playing.

[/marc mode]

hmm...tht makes a lot of sense...or does it ?

 

[Neil Pickup]

So lets do a little math here:
Percentage of tailender wickets before cap : 21.7
Percentage of tailender wickets before cap : 35.7

It tells me that there's been a 65% increase in the amount of tailenders he gets since he's been captain.
[/quote]

Sucks as captain

Don't think he did. "Can't be compared to Hussain"

Tell me I wrote he was an allrounder

I don't recall you saying this. But let's clear up the tailenders first.

[Edited on 9/1/02 by Neil Pickup]