TVS Challenger Trophy

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Look at his test avg i think its like 47 or something more !

54.2 to be more precise...

 

[gibbsnsmith]

lol
only 7.2 off...

 

[Choora]

That is utter nonsense because Harbhajan would not have had anywhere near that kind of success had the series been contested in Australia. Therefore I suggest you find a new example if you wish to disprove his logic.

What you are saying is senseless, how can you say for sure that Harbhajan wont be able to perform in Australia?
India is going to play in Aus later this year, regardless of the result of the series, if Harbhajan do perform well then going by Marc theory Harbhajan will end up being the greatest ever spinner !!

 

[Choora]

You were saying add just 2 players (SRT and Balaji) to the side of the time and they would be the best side in the World.

Now, since the best side in the World is undoubtedly Australia, how can I not bring them into the discussion?!

Fine, but that doesn't necessarily means that those players happen to be the best ever!
Just to give you an example, Kapil dev recently said that all India needs is to find a genuine allrounder and a wicket keeper that can bat for their one day team and if that happens then India would become the best in the world.
At no point did he said that such a allrounder and a WK should be the best ever, its just that they should be good enough to perform against stronger teams!

 

[Neil Pickup]

Just to give you an example, Kapil dev recently said that all India needs is to find a genuine allrounder and a wicket keeper that can bat for their one day team and if that happens then India would become the best in the world.
At no point did he said that such a allrounder and a WK should be the best ever, its just that they should be good enough to perform against stronger teams!

The point is that with the other nine players in the Indian side, they would have to find an incredibly good allrounder (Let's say Imran Khan at his peak) and a wicketkeepr who can bat (well they already have Dravid, and if you want wickies to bat only Gilchrist and maybe Boucher for all-round solidity rank above him) to increase the unit of India to greater than Australia.

As a comparison anyway, would:

Tendulkar
+Gilchrist
Ganguly
Sehwag
Dravid
Imran Khan
Yuvraj
Harbhajan
Salvi
Nehra
Zaheer

beat

+Gilchrist
Hayden
Ponting
Martyn
Symonds
Bevan
Bichel
Lee
Warne
Gillespie
McGrath

I'm not so sure.

 

[Choora]

That's a comparison on paper and while ppl would differ on the opinion on as to which team would be victorious, the point i was trying to make was that when Kapil Dev said that Indian team needs a good allrounder and a Keeper Batsman to become number 1, he never meant that India need an allrounder of the class of Imran and a keeper/Bats like Gilchrist to achieve that!

Interestingly on paper comparison of two teams, if we compare the late 80's teams of Pak and WI, we'll see that all Pakistan had were 4 class players in Imran,Miandad,Qadir and Akram, the rest of the players were mediocre (that too at best) in contrast the WI team was way stronger.Yet Pak somehow matched the great WI team on both their home and away tours!

 

[Neil Pickup]

That's a comparison on paper and while ppl would differ on the opinion on as to which team would be victorious, the point i was trying to make was that when Kapil Dev said that Indian team needs a good allrounder and a Keeper Batsman to become number 1, he never meant that India need an allrounder of the class of Imran and a keeper/Bats like Gilchrist to achieve that!

Whereas the rest of us believe that they would.

 

[marc71178]

if Harbhajan do perform well then going by Marc theory Harbhajan will end up being the greatest ever spinner !!

What theory is this?

I've never expressed a theory!

You are the one that suggested adding 2 players to a mediocre side would make them the best in the World.

Judging by the other teams in the world, that must make those 2 players demigods.

 

[marc71178]

That's a comparison on paper and while ppl would differ on the opinion on as to which team would be victorious

Erm, I don't think they would given those 2 sides.

Interestingly on paper comparison of two teams, if we compare the late 80's teams of Pak and WI, we'll see that all Pakistan had were 4 class players in Imran,Miandad,Qadir and Akram, the rest of the players were mediocre (that too at best) in contrast the WI team was way stronger.Yet Pak somehow matched the great WI team on both their home and away tours!

Sorry, but any side with 4 players of that quality in that sort of form would be expected to do well - 2 top batsmen and 3 top bowlers (all different to each other) - It's no wonder they did well!

The difference between adding 4 World Class players to 7 mediocre players and 2 "World Class" players (if Balaji is one, then the quotes are necessary) to 9 mediocre is a hell of a lot.

 

[Choora]

What theory is this?

I've never expressed a theory!

You are the one that suggested adding 2 players to a mediocre side would make them the best in the World.

Judging by the other teams in the world, that must make those 2 players demigods.

First of all a World cup finalist team can't be mediocre.India are not as good as the Aussies, but they aren't mediocre team as well.

Secondarily i did suggest that inclusion of those two players would make the "TEAM" the best in the world, but i never suggested that with that those two would end up being the best in the history of the game!

 

[Choora]

Sorry, but any side with 4 players of that quality in that sort of form would be expected to do well - 2 top batsmen and 3 top bowlers (all different to each other) - It's no wonder they did well!

The difference between adding 4 World Class players to 7 mediocre players and 2 "World Class" players (if Balaji is one, then the quotes are necessary) to 9 mediocre is a hell of a lot.

Neil was doing a paper comparison over here.If you compare that Pakistani team with the one that played with the great WI team, then you will find out that that WI team had atleast 10 world class players as compared to just 4 of Pakistan's!! The difference between 4 World class players and 10 world class players is hell of a lot.

The last time i checked, Dravid, Sachin and Ganguly were all playing for India, and no sane cricket follower can describe any one of them as mediocre players, they are indeed world class players!

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Mohsin Khan
Mudassar Nazar
Rameez Raja
Javed Miandad
Qasim Umar
Saleem Malik
Imran Khan
Abdul Qadir
Saleem Yousuf
Wasim Akram
Tauseef Ahmed

v

CG Greenidge
DL Haynes
RB Richardson
HA Gomes
+PJL Dujon
RA Harper
MD Marshall
*IVA Richards
AH Gray
CA Walsh
BP Patterson

 

[marc71178]

Neil was doing a paper comparison over here.If you compare that Pakistani team with the one that played with the great WI team, then you will find out that that WI team had atleast 10 world class players as compared to just 4 of Pakistan's!! The difference between 4 World class players and 10 world class players is hell of a lot.

Sorry, but even the most ardent West Indian fan would disagree that they had 10 or 11 World Class players in the team.

The last time i checked, Dravid, Sachin and Ganguly were all playing for India, and no sane cricket follower can describe any one of them as mediocre players, they are indeed world class players!

But SRT was one of the 2 you were adding to the team, and I would say, that although good players, Dravid and Ganguly are by no means World Class (as in the likes of SRT, Lara etc.)

 

[marc71178]

Secondarily i did suggest that inclusion of those two players would make the "TEAM" the best in the world, but i never suggested that with that those two would end up being the best in the history of the game!

And if you compare the side with the Aussies, those 2 would have to be the best to improve the Indian side enough to be better than the Aussies!

For a start, Balaji would have to be better than Lee, Gillespie and McGrath PUT TOGETHER for the bowling attack to be better than the Aussie one!

 

[Choora]

Sorry, but even the most ardent West Indian fan would disagree that they had 10 or 11 World Class players in the team.

The WI team that were held to one all draw by Pakistan had following players:

Greenidge, Hynes,Richards,Richardson,Hooper,Logie,Dujon,Marshall,Ambrose,Walsh & Benjamin.

While Benjamin and possibly Hooper might not qualify as World Class players, rest of them were indeed pure class, and noone can deny that!

But SRT was one of the 2 you were adding to the team, and I would say, that although good players, Dravid and Ganguly are by no means World Class (as in the likes of SRT, Lara etc.)

LOL! That seems to be a joke.Ganguly averages above 50 in ODI and still he isn't world class?? Dravid is all class, something that is recognized the world over. You can't just write off players by comparing them with Tendulkar, the last time i checked, the defination of "world Class" wasn't someone being as good as Tendulkar!

And if you compare the side with the Aussies, those 2 would have to be the best to improve the Indian side enough to be better than the Aussies!For a start, Balaji would have to be better than Lee, Gillespie and McGrath PUT TOGETHER for the bowling attack to be better than the Aussie one!

I have shown by comparing the WI and Pak sides that paper comparison can be tricky!

And i guess by the same standard, Warne & McGill Put Togeather would have to be better than Harbhajan (while playing against India)

 

[Neil Pickup]

Mohsin Khan
Mudassar Nazar
Rameez Raja
Javed Miandad
Qasim Umar
Saleem Malik
Imran Khan
Abdul Qadir
Saleem Yousuf
Wasim Akram
Tauseef Ahmed

Several more than four world class in that side.

As for mediocre teams reaching World Cup finals, well, I don't recall Pakistan in 1999 being anything special, and I don't think many of the English finalsts were that hot, either..

As for World Class players in the India side. If we're talking Tests, then I agree, Dravid is, ODIs, yep Ganguly. Not both at once. Which means two, maximum (inc SRT), and several very good.

 

[gibbsnsmith]

since when does Ganguly have a odi avg over 50?

i have really 2 points
1] ok to certain stubbborn people..india are no where close to being the best infact no team is even a inchj closer than the other to australia [exc.ban and zim]
inclusion of a couple of players wont make it so...

2] marc...dravid and ganguly are most definetly world class...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The WI team that were held to one all draw by Pakistan had following players:

Greenidge, Hynes,Richards,Richardson,Hooper,Logie,Dujon,Marshall,Ambrose,Walsh & Benjamin.

While Benjamin and possibly Hooper might not qualify as World Class players, rest of them were indeed pure class, and noone can deny that!

I can and will deny that. I think that Logie was a good batsman, but not World Class. That leaves, Haynes, Richards and Richardson (just barely there).

LOL! That seems to be a joke.Ganguly averages above 50 in ODI and still he isn't world class??

I suggest you fire your statistician and/or your mathematician with immediate effect.

Ganguly averages 43.18 in ODI's.

 

[marc71178]

Greenidge, Hynes,Richards,Richardson,Hooper,Logie,Dujon,Marshall,Ambrose,Walsh & Benjamin.

While Benjamin and possibly Hooper might not qualify as World Class players, rest of them were indeed pure class, and noone can deny that!

Of that 11, Richardson, Hooper, Logie, Dujon and Benjamin all fall short, and it was before Walsh became the bowler he was.

LOL! That seems to be a joke.Ganguly averages above 50 in ODI and still he isn't world class?? Dravid is all class, something that is recognized the world over. You can't just write off players by comparing them with Tendulkar, the last time i checked, the defination of "world Class" wasn't someone being as good as Tendulkar!

World Class is a select few (ie the best) - SRT is there, the others do not quite match up to that level.

A lot of people overuse the phrase "World Class"

And i guess by the same standard, Warne & McGill Put Togeather would have to be better than Harbhajan (while playing against India)

Since Warne is a better player on his own, no contest.

The point is with a pace attack, India have no-one who can get in the Aussie side (or the Aussie A or even Aussie B!) - so for Balaji to be the one bowler that would make that side the best in the World he'd have to do it all on his own.

 

[marc71178]

2] marc...dravid and ganguly are most definetly world class...

Dravid in Tests is ranked 7, Ganguly is number 40 (below Shaun Pollock, or is he a world class batsman?)
In Odi's, it's 16 and 15.


Now tell me they're better than SRT, Ponting, Lara etc. (the real world Class players)