Training Proposal - Take 2

[alternative]

The activity seems to be gradually increasing which is a positive sign i suppose.

 

[Mister Wright]

Given the lack of interest, that's not a bad idea. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the activities levels when we get started.

The great thing about the 6 team divisions was that every match had everything to play for. Because the top team and bottom team were always promoted or demoted, and the 2nd & 4th team played off for promotion or relegation, really every match had a meaning to get into a favourable position on the table. The fact now we have larger divisions means that there's a lot of teams in the middle that are playing for nothing for most of the season.

I don't think it matters how many teams we have, with all the first managers and 2nd managers, if we went back to squads of 15 and divisions of 6, we could have the most interesting competition in WCCs history.

 

[NZTailender]

Smaller squad sizes and smaller divisions are what is needed.

No IMO. A lot of divisions means a lot of databases and a lot more hassle.
Smaller squad sizes would be fine if it were simply 1 manager per side but we have a 2nd XI competition as well.

We could always model the WCC on the English County system i.e. just 2 divisions. A premier division and then the second division, with about 8 teams each. And then we could have a 'Minor counties' league which could be like the old Academy competition. And then there could be a knockout comp involving everyone.

 

[NZTailender]

The great thing about the 6 team divisions was that every match had everything to play for. Because the top team and bottom team were always promoted or demoted, and the 2nd & 4th team played off for promotion or relegation, really every match had a meaning to get into a favourable position on the table. The fact now we have larger divisions means that there's a lot of teams in the middle that are playing for nothing for most of the season.

I don't think it matters how many teams we have, with all the first managers and 2nd managers, if we went back to squads of 15 and divisions of 6, we could have the most interesting competition in WCCs history.

We had that in Season 6 and it was boring as hell. Season 7 was hardly exciting but it was a step forward.


Too many divisions and people in divisions 5 and 6 feel as though they're ages away from Division 1.

 

[Mister Wright]

No IMO. A lot of divisions means a lot of databases and a lot more hassle.
Smaller squad sizes would be fine if it were simply 1 manager per side but we have a 2nd XI competition as well.

We could always model the WCC on the English County system i.e. just 2 divisions. A premier division and then the second division, with about 8 teams each. And then we could have a 'Minor counties' league which could be like the old Academy competition. And then there could be a knockout comp involving everyone.

You need to make the divisions (or at least the way the divisions are promoted/relegated) mean something for as long as possible. Something like you've suggested there could work very well.

 

[chaminda_00]

I actually do prefer smalled divisons, but i really am not a fan for having more then 3 divisons. When we had 6 divisons it was way too much and was very hard for a manager to move up to the top. Throughout the season there might have been more interest, but for a long term manager it would get boring a lot quicker if you got stuck in the bottom couple divisons. For a team in Divison Three they know its only going to take two seasons to reach Divison One, thats perfect IMO for game like this.

With 24 sides it is possible to have 4 divisons of 6 sides, but personally i think four divisons is too much, as it means a manager who starts in Divison Four will need three seasons with a club to move to the top. For some managers they will be able to stay the distance, but for your average manager thats one season too many, especially if get unlucky with a playoff or have poor start one season.

If there is any changes the best option IMO would be 3 divisons of 8. To solve the issue of meanlingless games you just need more playoff spots. i.e Top 2 automatic, 3rd playoff. That way only teams 4th and 5th are not involved in the playoff/promotion series.

Smaller squads its not really possible with a 2nd XI competition.

 

[NZTailender]

I actually do prefer smalled divisons, but i really am not a fan for having more then 3 divisons. When we had 6 divisons it was way too much and was very hard for a manager to move up to the top. Throughout the season there might have been more interest, but for a long term manager it would get boring a lot quicker if you got stuck in the bottom couple divisons. For a team in Divison Three they know its only going to take two seasons to reach Divison One, thats perfect IMO for game like this.

With 24 sides it is possible to have 4 divisons of 6 sides, but personally i think four divisons is too much, as it means a manager who starts in Divison Four will need three seasons with a club to move to the top. For some managers they will be able to stay the distance, but for your average manager thats one season too many, especially if get unlucky with a playoff or have poor start one season.

If there is any changes the best option IMO would be 3 divisons of 8. To solve the issue of meanlingless games you just need more playoff spots. i.e Top 2 automatic, 3rd playoff. That way only teams 4th and 5th are not involved in the playoff/promotion series.

Smaller squads its not really possible with a 2nd XI competition.

Maybe there could be squads of 16 in 1st XI, and a lower 'club' style competition that have a base squad of 12 players, who would then be able to take their pick from the 5 players left over from their 'sister' club in 1st XI. The Club squads would be made up of a combination of left over draft players and rookies.

Or the club sides could be just be completely draft players and rookies.

The Club competition could be mirrored to the premier competition - 3 divisions of 6, and same amount of players. BUT the Club comp would definitely be the 'lesser' competition and a training ground for managers before they make the step up to the full side.
The lower teams would have to wait until the Premiership teams do their draft picks before having their own draft of the left over players. There could also be a rookie draft (who would be pre-assigned to a Premiership team for the next season) so they'd have more variety.

As an added incentive, the top 1 or 2 club teams could vie for promotion into Division 3 of the Premiership.

 

[chaminda_00]

Maybe there could be squads of 16 in 1st XI, and a lower 'club' style competition that have a base squad of 12 players, who would then be able to take their pick from the 5 players left over from their 'sister' club in 1st XI. The Club squads would be made up of a combination of left over draft players and rookies.

Or the club sides could be just be completely draft players and rookies.

The Club competition could be mirrored to the premier competition - 3 divisions of 6, and same amount of players. BUT the Club comp would definitely be the 'lesser' competition and a training ground for managers before they make the step up to the full side.
The lower teams would have to wait until the Premiership teams do their draft picks before having their own draft of the left over players. There could also be a rookie draft (who would be pre-assigned to a Premiership team for the next season) so they'd have more variety.

As an added incentive, the top 1 or 2 club teams could vie for promotion into Division 3 of the Premiership.

There isn't a great deal of difference between that and the academy system tbh. Thats basically how the academy system run, expect there was no link between the Top sides and bottom sides. There was no draft to pick players, they just got everyone who was left over. There was promotion option into lower Divison. Also that is very much a football oriented system, rather cricket oriented system.

Personally i think the 2nd XI competition works really well. Firstly its on par with what happens IRL in Australia and England. Secondly alot managers have stayed long term due to 2nd XI competition incomparsion to the academy. Most guys left the academy after a month after they didn't get an appointment as 1st XI manager. With the 2nd XI competition managers have decided in the past to continue as 2nd XI, over looking 1st XI for manager posts.

With reducing the squad size there is one option which will help Manju and Mat greater when simming matches. It will make things alot easier for 2nd XI managers to pick sides. This option is getting 1st XI managers to pick a squad of 15 in both forms, at the same time they pick 1st XIs. Then 2nd XI managers get the left over 15 players to select their 2nd XI side. This means that Manju and Mat don't have to look every side to figure out if a player has played 1st XI weekend or if they are a contracted player. Im sure Geg would tell you that probably the hardest thing about simming 2nd XI matches. That way also 1st XI managers have smaller squads to work with and 2nd XI have 15 players they can work with all season, rather then having to change their side every week depending on the sides the 1st XI manager choose. Would also mean more rookies.

With the sizes of divison the biggest problem we had in Divison One was the gap between the sides rather number of teams. In both forms the leagues were similar to EPL.You had one really good team, 2-3 really good sides. 3-5 other sides who on their day could push the top teams, but struggled to keep up with them throughout the whole season. Then you had 1-2 teams who were out of their depth.

Its seems that people forgot that best league last season was Divison Two OD, cus they had 8 even sides, who could beat any other side on their day. There nothing really wrong with leagues of 8 to 10 sides, if most sides are evenly matched. But really we need to reduce Divison One, cus its going to be 2 seasons or so, before the other sides might catch up to TN and Queensland of the world.

 

[NZTailender]

4 divisions of 6? With top 2 automatically promoted?

 

[chaminda_00]

4 divisions of 6? With top 2 automatically promoted?

Two issues sorting out playoff spots for this season, to work teams into those Divisons. 2nd issues is the fact that 10 matches per season is too small. If you have a bad start to the season, your season could be over by round 4. I think having 12-14 games allows teams to comeback if they have a slow start and isn't too long. It would also mean that the board is updating stats too often, which was the main reason for extending the season. There a good chance off season, could be long again, so your better off having a fairly long season, to make up for it.

Also when we had divisons of 6, it was top team auto and 2nd playoff. It meant that only a handful teams moved up and down. Having say Divisons of 8 would mean you have top 2 auto and 3rd playoff. That would mean there is a min of 4 teams moving up every season and potential 6 teams. So you would have 8-12 teams moving around each season, incomparsion to 6-12.

 

[NZTailender]

Two issues sorting out playoff spots for this season, to work teams into those Divisons. 2nd issues is the fact that 10 matches per season is too small. If you have a bad start to the season, your season could be over by round 4. I think having 12-14 games allows teams to comeback if they have a slow start and isn't too long. It would also mean that the board is updating stats too often, which was the main reason for extending the season. There a good chance off season, could be long again, so your better off having a fairly long season, to make up for it.

Also when we had divisons of 6, it was top team auto and 2nd playoff. It meant that only a handful teams moved up and down. Having say Divisons of 8 would mean you have top 2 auto and 3rd playoff. That would mean there is a min of 4 teams moving up every season and potential 6 teams. So you would have 8-12 teams moving around each season, incomparsion to 6-12.

There can still be 4 divisions of 6 yet have more games.

It just means some teams would play each other three times which happened last season.

 

[chaminda_00]

There can still be 4 divisions of 6 yet have more games.

It just means some teams would play each other three times which happened last season.

It does get pretty boring IMO playing the same side 3 times in a season, 4 times if you meet in the cup, 6-7 times if your in the same divison in both forms.

 

[NZTailender]

It does get pretty boring IMO playing the same side 3 times in a season, 4 times if you meet in the cup, 6-7 times if your in the same divison in both forms.

Yeah, but you'll play only two teams 3 times. Like last year, I had a ball playing Mash 3 times because of the rivalry.

If you're in the same division in both forms you're going to end up getting sick of that team, probably. But it happens in all competitions. We can't have 6 teams in a division and long games without playing at least two teams 3 times. 3 Divisions of 8 means there is that middle/bottom of the order languishing that will go on. And if someone is dead least by round 8 with another 6 to go, their enjoyment factor won't be high.


IMO, 10 games a season with 4 divisions of 6 is okay, giving us at least 20 weeks of matches and playoffs make 21. If we had a mid-season knock out comp that's either a simple 50 over competition or a 20/20 type, that could effectively be 4-5 more weeks (if we broke it into 6 divisions of 4 teams at random who progress into quarters and semi's and then a final). When the quarter finals are reached then a normal schedle is resumed so there aren't any teams not playing. A mirror image 2nd XI comp would be run at the same time.

That takes up half a year. If that ends up being too long then the knockout cup can be run at the same time as the season, like the past.

 

[chaminda_00]

Yeah, but you'll play only two teams 3 times. Like last year, I had a ball playing Mash 3 times because of the rivalry.

If you're in the same division in both forms you're going to end up getting sick of that team, probably. But it happens in all competitions. We can't have 6 teams in a division and long games without playing at least two teams 3 times. 3 Divisions of 8 means there is that middle/bottom of the order languishing that will go on. And if someone is dead least by round 8 with another 6 to go, their enjoyment factor won't be high.


IMO, 10 games a season with 4 divisions of 6 is okay, giving us at least 20 weeks of matches and playoffs make 21. If we had a mid-season knock out comp that's either a simple 50 over competition or a 20/20 type, that could effectively be 4-5 more weeks (if we broke it into 6 divisions of 4 teams at random who progress into quarters and semi's and then a final). When the quarter finals are reached then a normal schedle is resumed so there aren't any teams not playing. A mirror image 2nd XI comp would be run at the same time.

That takes up half a year. If that ends up being too long then the knockout cup can be run at the same time as the season, like the past.

I didn't mind being the same divison as Queensland and Victoria last season. But personally found it pretty boring in Divison Three, last season when we had to play some sides three times. Its seems if you add extra games, you just adding them for the sake it rather then for a real reason.

20 weeks in a season, plus 3-4 cup and playoff weeks is ok. But the issue is still 10 rounds is too small to allow teams to comeback after poor starts. With the playoff and promotion series we had with Divisons of 6, not many sides are going to be moving around much. You could have 2 top automatic and no play offs, but some teams in the top divison do deserve a 2nd chance.

If managers want to get a chance to divisons this season, it is possible to do it straight away with Divisons of 8, with playoff matches at the start of the season. That way if we find Divisons of 8, is still too big, then we can cut back to Divisons of 6, pretty easierly next season. Its just a big change going from the current set up, back to 6 in one season.

 

[NZTailender]

I didn't mind being the same divison as Queensland and Victoria last season. But personally found it pretty boring in Divison Three, last season when we had to play some sides three times. Its seems if you add extra games, you just adding them for the sake it rather then for a real reason.

20 weeks in a season, plus 3-4 cup and playoff weeks is ok. But the issue is still 10 rounds is too small to allow teams to comeback after poor starts. With the playoff and promotion series we had with Divisons of 6, not many sides are going to be moving around much. You could have 2 top automatic and no play offs, but some teams in the top divison do deserve a 2nd chance.

If managers want to get a chance to divisons this season, it is possible to do it straight away with Divisons of 8, with playoff matches at the start of the season. That way if we find Divisons of 8, is still too big, then we can cut back to Divisons of 6, pretty easierly next season. Its just a big change going from the current set up, back to 6 in one season.

True. I think 3 divisions of 8 is fine for now, with 14 matches.
But to keep things interesting I think there needs to be top/bottom two with auto promotion/relegation, while 3rd/3rd last playoff. That means pretty much everyone will be fighting for something, with 2 teams in the middle who will simply do nothing once the seasons end. Depending on how those 2 teams play, they'll either just be behind the leaders or trying to fight off the fact they 'could' be demoted.

You can argue what right does 3rd have to have a crack at 3rd last but IMO if the 3rd last team from above is good enough they'll be able to avoid relegation fairly easily.


And we can always bring back international matches for the off season. Last time we had 2 managers per international side. IMO if there's enough interest that theres 2 managers per team there could easily be A tours and such.

 

[chaminda_00]

Small steps Geg, International Cricket is a long way off.

That playoff/promotion series for Divisons of 8, was what i suggested in the first place. Means that pretty much every side should have something to play for all season round.

 

[NZTailender]

Small steps Geg, International Cricket is a long way off.

That playoff/promotion series for Divisons of 8, was what i suggested in the first place. Means that pretty much every side should have something to play for all season round.

Implement it.


As for international cricket; that can be an off-season thing. It's not too difficult to organise and not much extra work to sim.

 

[chaminda_00]

Implement it.


As for international cricket; that can be an off-season thing. It's not too difficult to organise and not much extra work to sim.

Finding the country every rookie made their debut could be hard. Unless you have that info somewhere.

I'll look into the playoff matches to implement, 3 Divisons of 8 later tonight unless anyone has any objections. It would basically be on the back of last seasons placings:

Div One:
6th D1 v 8th D1/3rd D2 (playoff winner)
2nd D2 v 7th D1


Div Two:
5th D2 v 7th D2/D3 2nd (playoff winner)
1st D3 v 6th D2

 

[NZTailender]

Finding the country every rookie made their debut could be hard. Unless you have that info somewhere.

I'll look into the playoff matches to implement, 3 Divisons of 8 later tonight unless anyone has any objections. It would basically be on the back of last seasons placings:

Div One:
6th D1 v 8th D1/3rd D2 (playoff winner)
2nd D2 v 7th D1


Div Two:
5th D2 v 7th D2/D3 2nd (playoff winner)
1st D3 v 6th D2

Re internationals: the rookies were usually randomly assigned to countries IIRC, since they're made up. It would be a matter of evenly distributing players to the test playing nations.


As for playoffs the divisions, I think those who were promoted last year should stay in the divisions they got promoted to. It'd be unfair to put them back. Althouh it'd also be a bit unfair to throw people down to a lower division...but it sort of happened last season.

 

[NZTailender]

This is how it'd look if we kept the current model:

Division 1
Tamil Nadu
ACT
Lancashire
Leicestershire
Western Prov
Western Aust
Auckland
Hampshire
South Australia (1st div 2)
Kent (2nd div 2)

Division 2
Northerns (2nd last div 1)
Warwickshire (last div 1)
Yorkshire
Free State
New South Wales
Guyana
Surrey
Colts (1st div 3)

Division 3
Karachi (last divison 2)
Victoria
Queensland
Tasmania
Mashonaland
Mumbai

Proposed division model plan for season 8? (FC)

Option One:

Division 1
1. Tamil Nadu
2. ACT
3. Lancashire
4. Leicestershire
5. Western Prov
6. Western Aust
7. South Australia
8. Kent

Division 2
1. Auckland
2. Hampshire
3. Northerns
4. Warwickshire
5. Yorkshire
6. Free State
7. New South Wales
8. Colts

Division 3
1. Guyana
2. Surrey
3. Karachi
4. Victoria
5. Queensland
6. Tasmania
7. Mashonaland
8. Mumbai



Option 2:

Division 1
1. Tamil Nadu
2. ACT
3. Lancashire
4. Leicestershire
5. Western Prov
6. Western Aust
7. Auckland
8. Hampshire

Division 2
1. South Australia
2. Kent
3. Northerns
4. Warwickshire
5. Yorkshire
6. Free State
7. New South Wales
8. Guyana

Division 3
1. Surrey
2. Colts
3. Karachi
4. Victoria
5. Queensland
6. Tasmania
7. Mashonaland
8. Mumbai