Top ten greatest bowlers and batsmen of all time

[honestbharani]

This should be interesting, I've never seen a Warne v Murali debate on CW.

Esp. involving Ikki and Migara.. I have no idea where those two posters stand on this matter

 

[Ikki]

THe difference is Warne never did it against India anywhere. Murali at least did it in SL where the pitches are like second home for Indian batsmen.

We've done this dance: SL and India are the best places to bowl spin in the world and they're also two of the best spin-playing teams in the world during that time. Warne already showed what he could do on Murali's pitches and Murali showed how ineffective he was on Warne's.

The comparable part of their record is how they did in India, and Warne did better.

And if you insist, this is regarded as one of the best displays of spin bowling by a foreign spinner in India.

Fantastic, now show us the innings where he was shellacked to the point that his figures go south of Warne's.

Warne has a better record in India than Murali. Warne also has the best series against India for both of them.

Ikki check your facts. Murali did do it in India.

Warne has better ratios than Murali in India. That's not disputable.

Murali took 40 wickets in 11 matches; Warne took 34 in 9 matches. If you want to refer to Innings, Warne bowled less even if he played more innings.

Murali had 2 5fers, Warne had 1.

And Warne had several career threatening injuries during that period. What was Murali's excuse?

Esp. involving Ikki and Migara.. I have no idea where those two posters stand on this matter

You used to join in .

 

[Ikki]

You are just looking at averages. They both had similar averages in India I think (don't have the stats with me right now). Muralidaran bowled a brilliant spell where he took 5 wickets for about 20 runs in 7 or 8 overs to restrict India. Warne never managed that.

Anyway, my point is Warne shouldn't be considered as one of the top 3 all-time bowlers (rather than Muralidaran being better than him) because of the weakness I pointed out. He never ran through India home or away. ODI performance was even worse if I'm not mistaken.

Debate about these two spinners has been done many times on various sites. Both did well against most teams, but only Muralidaran was able to trouble Indian batting of that era. That's why I picked him. I think we all know both of them were great bowlers. So let's put it as - best leg spinner - Warne, best off spinner - Muralidaran.

It's fair enough that you don't rate them that highly because they were taken to the cleaners by India. However, I give quite a bit of slack to Warne considering the multiple injuries he had when he played the majority of his cricket against them. His best series, his last one, he averaged 30 and his SR was 60...and he also missed the best pitch through another injury...one where Michael Clarke took 6/9...which could've made a very good series a very great one.

For me, a spinner who bowls close to the ratios of a fast bowler is more valuable as a whole. He can bowl much more, take more wickets and have far more big hauls in individual matches. He also provides a balance and another weapon to the team and considering their rareness in cricket...bowlers like Warne and Murali are worth their weight in gold. The last spinner in their caliber was half a century prior. There are great fast bowlers in every generation.

That India took them to the cleaners shouldn't detract from that. It could simply have been the greatest line-up to face spin bowling of which there hasn't been a fast-bowling equivalent. As Howe intimated; were the bowlers that bad or the batsmen just that good?

 

[honestbharani]

You used to join in .

Yeah.. then I grew up


But seriously guys, I am sure you can redig up the official Warne Vs Murali thread instead of turning most front page threads to be about them.. They have retired. Maybe you guys should too At least on this debate

 

[Paul S]

It's fair enough that you don't rate them that highly because they were taken to the cleaners by India. However, I give quite a bit of slack to Warne considering the multiple injuries he had when he played the majority of his cricket against them. His best series, his last one, he averaged 30 and his SR was 60...and he also missed the best pitch through another injury...one where Michael Clarke took 6/9...which could've made a very good series a very great one.

For me, a spinner who bowls close to the ratios of a fast bowler is more valuable as a whole. He can bowl much more, take more wickets and have far more big hauls in individual matches. He also provides a balance and another weapon to the team and considering their rareness in cricket...bowlers like Warne and Murali are worth their weight in gold. The last spinner in their caliber was half a century prior. There are great fast bowlers in every generation.

That India took them to the cleaners shouldn't detract from that. It could simply have been the greatest line-up to face spin bowling of which there hasn't been a fast-bowling equivalent. As Howe intimated; were the bowlers that bad or the batsmen just that good?

Not taking anything away from Warne, but that wasn't a pitch. More like a minefield. Gillespie and McGrath were the impact bowlers in that series.

I didn't say Warne and Murali weren't great, just that I wouldn't rate them in the top 3 ATG bowlers.

Yes, I believe there was a fast bowling equivalent in that era (1990-2010). I don't know the exact figures, but I think Australia handled fast bowling better. You can filter 'pace bowler' v 'opposition team' on statsguru. Try it for the top 8 teams. I would be surprised if Australia didn't come on top.

 

[Coronis]

Since the current topic is spin bowlers...

Top 5 Spinners
Murali
Warne
O'Reilly
Grimmett
Laker

All 5 stand head and shoulders above the rest, in my opinion. Didn't put in Barnes as I honestly still have no idea what he bowled.

 

[kyear2]

Since the current topic is spin bowlers...

Top 5 Spinners
Murali
Warne
O'Reilly
Grimmett
Laker

All 5 stand head and shoulders above the rest, in my opinion. Didn't put in Barnes as I honestly still have no idea what he bowled.

Would agree with the top 3, after that its gets murky. Grimmett averaged 30 vs England and Laker was at his best on wet pitches and never seemed to be at his best against the best. After the top three there is Grimmett, Laker, Tayfield, Underwood and Verity who are difficult to separate. Then there were the spinners who didn't have the number of those previously mentioned but played in less helpful conditions (pitches/catching/captaincy) as well, Gibbs, Valentine, Ramadin, Bedi, Gupte, Prassana and Chandrasakar, but who could in skill match those above them (except the top three).

Murali, Warne and Tiger were though a class of their own and forms the top tier of spin bowling.

 

[watson]

Since the current topic is spin bowlers...

Top 5 Spinners
Murali
Warne
O'Reilly
Grimmett
Laker

All 5 stand head and shoulders above the rest, in my opinion. Didn't put in Barnes as I honestly still have no idea what he bowled.

Was Barnes the greatest bowler of all time?
David Frith speaks to former England bowler Sydney Barnes whose 49 wickets against South Africa in 1913-14 is still the record for most wickets in a series

....Did he cut the ball like Underwood? "Cut it!" He glared, and again I wondered if he might hurl something at me. "I spun the ball!"Those long, gnarled fingers gyrated around imaginary leather. He bowled a brisk medium, but applied spin, with excruciating accuracy. No wonder he was regarded as the greatest bowler of all by most thoughtful judges.

Was Barnes the greatest bowler of all time? | Cricket Features | Wisden Cricketer | ESPN Cricinfo

Barnes could have been exaggerating of course, or a little bit confused himself as to what constitues spin on the ball. But I prefer to give Barnes the benefit of the doubt and call him a spinner. Albeit an unorthodox one.

After all, there have been precious few spin bowlers who spin the ball from the front of the hand with the palm facing the batsman. In recent times Ajanthas Mendis has used the 'Barnes Technique' to good effect. He can be seen bowling in the following Youtube footage;

Laptops, Ajanthas Mendis, Sydney Barnes and Front of the Hand Bowling | Down At Third Man

 

[watson]

Since there is a reasonable case for classifying SF Barnes as a spin bowler (although I can understand why many people prefer not to) then I believe that the order should be;

01. Shane Warne
02. SF Barnes
03. Muttiah Muralitheran
04. Bill O'Reilly
05. Jim Laker

Although 5th spot could easily be taken by Arthur Mailey, Hedley Verity, Clarrie Grimmett, or Anil Kumble. Incidently, I never used to rate Kumble very highly, but have been persuaded by re-reading some very good arguments in his favour on CW.

 

[watson]

Here is another interesting video regarding Ajanthas Mendis. 'Bumble' makes some good observations about his bowling style during the break of a T20 game at Nottingham. I reckon that all of them (bar the googly) could easily apply to SF Barnes;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8hhIsjAuhU

 

[Burgey]

AB

/thread

 

[OverratedSanity]

AB

/thread

I agree

 

[Burgey]

Don't be mentioning that pretender in the same breath as the original and best AB.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Don't be mentioning that pretender in the same breath as the original and best AB.

Only one AB

 

[Burgey]

Look mate. Don't be coming on here and taking Allan Border's name in vain.

 

[Days of Grace]

Clarke is so much better and ***ier than AB ever was.

I mean, did AB ever score a ****ing triple against an alltime great Indian attack featuring the great Zaheer? I think not.

 

[Burgey]

Look, I respect you and all that. A lot of time and effort went into this fantastic thread. But Clarkeh, good as he is, isn't fit to carry AB's jock strap.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Comparing apples and oranges, AB was the best at what he did. An absolute master and pioneer as a leader of the team even before he was skipper. It was like telling him he was officially the leader that seamed to be the only time he wasn't in leader mode. But that reluctance to lead soon faded and he returned to front to face off against some of the best attacks ever, and show his team and everyone else how it was done.

 

[Days of Grace]

Look, I respect you and all that. A lot of time and effort went into this fantastic thread. But Clarkeh, good as he is, isn't fit to carry AB's jock strap.

Lol, just baiting.

Expected a rage not that ****.

 

[benchmark00]

Can safely say I don't respect DOG ftr.