Top of the world? - You're havin' a laugh

[greg]

A team without a match winning spinner and with a weak middle order batting lineup simply doesn't have a chance of displacing Australia for top slot!

.

Of course they do. It is results that judge who is the best team, not somebody's idea of the ideal balance of a side. Of course England have weaknesses, but then so do Australia and so will they increasingly in the future. Forget back-ups, they are going to have to replace half a team with players probably as yet unidentified to maintain their pre-eminence. Had England chased 198 as they should have done in the first test then all talk of their lack of quality spinners would be meaningless.

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

. Had England chased 198 as they should have done in the first test then all talk of their lack of quality spinners would be meaningless.

Rubbish. Even before the Pak series it was pointed out that England would struggle to become the top team unless they do find a good spinner.

England would struggle to do well in Subcontinent without a quality spinner, you will realise this more when England tour India in comming months.

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

. Had England chased 198 as they should have done in the first test then all talk of their lack of quality spinners would be meaningless.

Also if we start talking about "if's" and "had's", then had Pakistan taken the numerous chances that was offered by the Englis batsmen in the second test match then Pakistan would have easily won that test match!!

 

[greg]

Rubbish. Even before the Pak series it was pointed out that England would struggle to become the top team unless they do find a good spinner.

England would struggle to do well in Subcontinent without a quality spinner, you will realise this more when England tour India in comming months.

A twisting of my words. Of course a quality spinner would help, but England have showed enough to demonstrate that it's possible without. England should have won the first test without any contribution from spin. And, as an aside, it wasn't spin that was responsible for Pakistan nearly winning this game either. In fact, given how little England's spinners have done, and the fact they have not been bowled in tandem at any point, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that they are basically playing with ten men (with a bowling attack of 3 fast bowlers and one spinner). I don't think ANYONE would dispute that having Simon Jones (not a spinner) would have made a massive difference.

All ifs and buts of course but if we are entering an era when being top side does not require beating every other test team anywhere and everywhere then perspectives will change. As usual England's critics are trying to compare them with an Australian team who beat everyone rather than a team who will in coming years struggle from time to time.

 

[greg]

Also if we start talking about "if's" and "had's", then had Pakistan taken the numerous chances that was offered by the Englis batsmen in the second test match then Pakistan would have easily won that test match!!

That depends on how you think Pakistan would have reacted to defeat in the first test.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Danish Kaneria took no wickets in a Test for the first time in his Test career at Faisalabad.

These wickets are not turning!

 

[cricketfan2005]

Had England chased 198 as they should have done in the first test then all talk of their lack of quality spinners would be meaningless.

Yeah but they didn't chase it. Bottom line.

If you're going to try and spin it like that but only for your own team then Pakistan "should" have won the second test too because they "should" have caught their catches.

 

[greg]

Yeah but they didn't chase it. Bottom line.

No they didn't. But then my motivation isn't to say "aren't england wonderful" or "england were robbed". The fact is that if you fail to chase 198 on a pretty flat pitch then it is not the lack of a quality spinner that is the main cause of your defeat.

As I said above, there is a pretty decent argument that England have suffered by feeling a need on the subcontinent to bolster their weakness (picking two spinners) rather than accentuate their strength (their pace bowling).

 

[Neil Pickup]

Yeah but they didn't chase it. Bottom line.

If you're going to try and spin it like that but only for your own team then Pakistan "should" have won the second test too because they "should" have caught their catches.

Can you please stop re-registering?

 

[a massive zebra]

Who was that?

 

[Top_Cat]

Danish Kaneria took no wickets in a Test for the first time in his Test career at Faisalabad.

These wickets are not turning!

Yeah but come on Neil; he'll bowl worse than he did in the first-innings and take a bag. How many drops were off his bowling? Just taking one of those wickets might have resulted in a few more.

Y'know who's the real surprise package of this series? Shoaib Akhtar. I have never seen him steam in so consistently as he has this series. He's been quick as usual but he's bowled accurately and hasn't thrown in the towel like he's been guilty of previously. Has bowled with a heck of a lot of heart in this series.

 

[Pratters]

Danish Kaneria took no wickets in a Test for the first time in his Test career at Faisalabad.

These wickets are not turning!

Danish was very good in the overs he bowled over the wicket. The warnings meant he bowled around majority of the time.

 

[chaminda_00]

Y'know who's the real surprise package of this series? Shoaib Akhtar. I have never seen him steam in so consistently as he has this series. He's been quick as usual but he's bowled accurately and hasn't thrown in the towel like he's been guilty of previously. Has bowled with a heck of a lot of heart in this series.

The difference is that he has had some support in this series, no bowler likes carrying an attack. Guys like Rana, Sami and Ahmed have step up at times in the series.

 

[Top_Cat]

The difference is that he has had some support in this series, no bowler likes carrying an attack. Guys like Rana, Sami and Ahmed have step up at times in the series.

Murali and Hadlee didn't complain..........

Actually, that's a good point. Hadn't thought of the issue of support. I'm a big fan of Rana so it's good to see him in the side. That's a pretty nasty new-ball attack, really. Especially on slow, low decks.

 

[Jono]

Well it'll be interesting to see how England do go in India. Pakistan may not be preparing raging turners, but I have no doubt in my mind that India will for at least 2 of the 3 tests. Will England play 2 spinners than with Jones possibly back? Doubtful.

 

[chaminda_00]

If Jones is back and turners are produced i'll say they will drop Hoggard...

 

[greg]

If Jones is back and turners are produced i'll say they will drop Hoggard...

Doubt it. It's incredible how many people continue to criticise Hoggard and cite his supposed ineffectiveness, and yet he continues to pick up wickets even in conditions which are hardly helpful to him. Bit of credit for his performance on this tour thus far, especially. Anyway at the end of the day there is ZERO point in picking two spinners if they are not going to bowl in tandem, which if this tour is any guide is not going to happen for more than a handful of overs.

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

A twisting of my words. Of course a quality spinner would help, but England have showed enough to demonstrate that it's possible without. .

.

That is something that remains to be seen, they did beat Australia in the recent Ashes series, but it remains to be seen if they can carry on their good work.

Only the WI team of the 80's were able to dominate the world with a attack which didn't had any quality spinner, they did that coz they had a pace attack that happen to be the best the world has ever seen.England do have a very good pace attack, but its not comparable to WI attack of the 80's.

As usual England's critics are trying to compare them with an Australian team who beat everyone rather than a team who will in coming years struggle from time to time

So you think that Aus won't be able to maintain their winning sequence?

 

[GladiatrsInBlue]

That depends on how you think Pakistan would have reacted to defeat in the first test.

I've seen this team bouncing back from a humiliating defeat at the hands of India to square the series (both in OD and test matches) in recent times.And those happens to be more crucial and more pressure matches, as such i don't think a defeat in first test match would have bounced Pak team out of the series.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Fine margins

Is there a point to this? That's not the same Pakistan team, or the same Australian team, and Australia won that series 3-0 anyway.