Top of the world? - You're havin' a laugh

[Pratters]

Pakistan, given the fight they've shown against India and England recently and the potential of bringing guys like Kamal and Gul into the team, could have a fair claim to be in fourth spot after Australia, England and South Africa, but anything more is hugely premature.

Let's not forget that a very similar team toured Australia last year and were whitewashed in the tests and won a single ODI.

South Africa is clear no. 3 in the world in tests at the moment based on what exactly?

 

[nightprowler10]

Let's not forget that a very similar team toured Australia last year and were whitewashed in the tests and won a single ODI.

Fair point. But note that the team learned its lessons and started playing like a unit, and hasn't lost a series (ODIs/Tests) since then. For most of that period we didn't even have a full strength team (though we did in Australia). Pakistan are certainly not #1 material, as we depend heavily on our middle order to save us, but we're heading in the right direction.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

South Africa is clear no. 3 in the world in tests at the moment based on what exactly?

On results, they aren't, but personally I'd back South Africa against anyone other than Australia and England, excluding perhaps touring the subcontinent. They're a solid all-round team, and improving from a brief slump. I'd rate Australia and England the clear best right now, and South Africa, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka in a fairly even group behind them, with South Africa far more likely to win on tour than any of the other three.

I'd expect over the next year or two we'll see that carried over into results. With the addition of Nel and the improvement of Ntini, South Africa are developing a solid bowling attack again, and they've certainly got good enough batting stocks to match it with most teams.

 

[chaminda_00]

I agree, and if this argument has come about because of England's recent struggles in Pakistan then I think that's not a solid place to prove a team's worth. Pakistan is an incredibly difficult place to win in, with supreme batting tracks that cannot be rivaled by anywhere else in the world. Also you have to consider England could be 1-0 up right now if they had won the toss in Multan. Obviosuly i'm not saying that winning the toss secures the match, but in a place like Pakistan it does have a great bearing on the series result.

In the bowling department, I don't think England's cupboard is bare. We have wonderful players such as Plunkett and Anderson waiting to get selection.

Plunkett is this the same man that averages 30odd in FC cricket and Anderson has a lot of potential but so do most bowlers that play Test Cricket. Anderson has never produced it at Test level. If this is the best you have then its quite bare, but Tremlett is there to prop it up slightly.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Fair point. But note that the team learned its lessons and started playing like a unit, and hasn't lost a series (ODIs/Tests) since then. For most of that period we didn't even have a full strength team (though we did in Australia). Pakistan are certainly not #1 material, as we depend heavily on our middle order to save us, but we're heading in the right direction.

On that, I agree. Pakistan are a very promising team, and a very likable one from a neutral perspective, having shown a great deal of fight from difficult positions in recent times. They are definatly a team on the way up. They're certainly a long way from pushing for top spot in tests though.

 

[chaminda_00]

Are you kidding?

To say that Pakistan are somewhat underrated is fine, but pushing for top spot? Asim Kamal is indeed a good reserve batsman (though he should be in the main team ahead of mediocre players like Shoaib Malik), but Hasan Raza isn't in the same league as many reserve batsmen in both Australia and England, I find it hard to believe that anyone considers Mushtaq and Saqlain today to be better than MacGill, and Gillespie and Kasprowicz, out of form or not, are certainly far more proven than Gul or Rana, one of whom is a walking injury and the other is largely innocuous at test level when the ball isn't swinging.

Pakistan, given the fight they've shown against India and England recently and the potential of bringing guys like Kamal and Gul into the team, could have a fair claim to be in fourth spot after Australia, England and South Africa, but anything more is hugely premature.

Let's not forget that a very similar team toured Australia last year and were whitewashed in the tests and won a single ODI.

So the fact that Hasan Raza has been averaging 50 with the bat over last couple season means nothing and the fact that his smacked most 'A Team' attacks around the world over the last couple years means nothing either. His right up there.

Whoever i said i was comparing Mushtaq and Saqlain to those three, ever considered they were being compared to the backup spinners of England and Australia.

Also same applies for Gul and Rana as i was comparing them to the first couple bowlers that would come into the Australian side at present Tait, Lewis, Clark and Bracken.

Also i would say Pakistan are equal third with South Africa, both have major holes in their 1st XIs they need to fix up, before being able to be considered near England or Australia ATM.

 

[Pratters]

On results, they aren't, but personally I'd back South Africa against anyone other than Australia and England, excluding perhaps touring the subcontinent. They're a solid all-round team, and improving from a brief slump. I'd rate Australia and England the clear best right now, and South Africa, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka in a fairly even group behind them, with South Africa far more likely to win on tour than any of the other three.

I'd expect over the next year or two we'll see that carried over into results. With the addition of Nel and the improvement of Ntini, South Africa are developing a solid bowling attack again, and they've certainly got good enough batting stocks to match it with most teams.

I rate South Africa and believe they are a quality pace bowler away from being a superb team. But till the results in the sub continent do not improve it is a similar weakness to a sub continent team failing abroad. Will a subcontinent team - Pakistan or India show much more improvement abroad. Or will South Africa show improvement in India in tests? Its too early to say and the tour of Australia will show that South Africa is building into a promising side but still has lot of loop holes. I dont think we can South Africa is the clear no 3 in tests and it will show in 1 or 2 years. Because 1 or 2 years later some one might say team x is the best team based on their composition etc.

A teams ranking should be based on performances and right now no team is a clear no. 3.

 

[Weaving A Web]

Bear in mind this performance in Pakistan was achieved a) without the captain in the first game, who is also one of our best batsmen, and with a waste of space in his position, and b) without world cricket's best fast-bowling prospect of the last 12 months, who's been replaced by a 36-year-old who's actually playing on pitches that don't suit him anyway. If Vaughan and Jones had been playing, things may well have gone differently, and people might be saying "Wow, England are 1-0 up with 1 to play, they could win 2-0 in Pakistan, that's a great performance - maybe they are the team to overtake Australia". .

Bare in mind Pakistan are winning without Abdul Razzaq out for the entire series, and selection folly of leaving out Afridi in the first, who they will also be without in the final test as well as Shabbir, who bowled well in the first test and was entitled to be picked for the next two.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Bare in mind Pakistan are winning without Abdul Razzaq out for the entire series, and selection folly of leaving out Afridi in the first, who they will also be without in the final test as well as Shabbir, who bowled well in the first test and was entitled to be picked for the next two.

Razzaq's record in Tests is awful, Shabbir is lucky to have played in one Test let alone any more when he's chucking. England as a team are still a bit better than Pakistan, but not by a big enough margin to overcome losing the toss, being without possibly their best bowler in the Ashes, being without Vaughan in the first Test, carrying a few players who're not near their best or are underperforming and playing away in alien conditions.

 

[greg]

Fine margins

 

[chalky]

I think the pakistan wickets have exposed Englands biggest weakness i.e. spin bowling. If they played Australia or India on these wickets they wood get beaten aswell. If you look at the other parts of the team they have done reasonably well - The batsmen have scored over 400 in each 1st innings and the Harmison & Flintoff have been immense.

On weather England are the best team in the world or not I believe if they played Australia in Australia England's quick bowlers would give the Australian batsmen hell agian.

On the question of depth - At moment Australi's 1st change bowler is Andrew Symonds

Also will Mcgrath be able to stand up to 5 tests in 6 weeks as is being rumored for the next Ashes.

 

[Weaving A Web]

This last ashes hasn't really had an impact on my prediction for the next one.

If both teams play their first choice 11's throughout the series, weather doesn't play a significant role and umpiring decisions are pretty even I would expect Australia to win it 3/4 - 1

 

[Hodgo7]

I
On weather England are the best team in the world or not I believe if they played Australia in Australia England's quick bowlers would give the Australian batsmen hell agian.

On the question of depth - At moment Australi's 1st change bowler is Andrew Symonds

Also will Mcgrath be able to stand up to 5 tests in 6 weeks as is being rumored for the next Ashes.

Firstly, the English lads won't get nowhere near as much swing or reverse swing in Australia. By then we will have realised to play two spinners in MacGill and Warne. In relation to the 1st change bowler. It won't matter if we have Warne, McGrath, Lee and MacGill. Who else is going to get wickets with these four bowling ? Its worked for us before.

McGrath will be able to stand up to 5 tests. The Aussie selectors are going to be cautious with him over the next 12 months. They have already left him out of the One-day series between the Kiwis and Us.

 

[Weaving A Web]

Firstly, the English lads won't get nowhere near as much swing or reverse swing in Australia. By then we will have realised to play two spinners in MacGill and Warne.

These two points cannot be overstated. I believe both will be huge factors.

Australia certainly missed a trick with Macgill in The Ashes and that isn't said enough. It was almost as big a gaffe as Ponting's decision to have a bowl at Edgbaston IMO.

The selectors came upon this lineup one series too late as it turned out and I truely believe it would give England a thrashing.

 

[age_master]

I love English cricket fans. Two slightly off-games and suddenly it's find the nearest skyscraper and get ready to hurl yourself off it. It's been a great series so far - and it's not like Australia have any back up seam bowlers either. How many casual fans had heard of Tait? Australia picked Nathan Hauritz nine months ago. We just need a little more middle order stickability - Inzamam's been the difference this series.

I've got complete faith in Duncan

tell you what though England sure do get themselves into more exciting cricket than Australia (might have been different if Lara had fired).

as for back up seamers i wouldn't mind having the likes of Gillespie, Kasprowicz etc

 

[Weaving A Web]

tell you what though England sure do get themselves into more exciting cricket than Australia (might have been different if Lara had fired).

Lara was up against it considering he was playing by different rules like being out if a ball went past his bat or if it hit a pad.

 

[open365]

I love English cricket fans. Two slightly off-games and suddenly it's find the nearest skyscraper and get ready to hurl yourself off it. It's been a great series so far - and it's not like Australia have any back up seam bowlers either. How many casual fans had heard of Tait? Australia picked Nathan Hauritz nine months ago. We just need a little more middle order stickability - Inzamam's been the difference this series.

I've got complete faith in Duncan

agree totaly.

England have shown what they are capble of,and so have Pakistan.

Our back-up players are no worse than any test playing nation, and that includes Australia.

 

[Weaving A Web]

agree totaly.
Our back-up players are no worse than any test playing nation, and that includes Australia.

You're back up spinners aren't as good as India and Pakistan and your back up batsman aren't as good as Australias

 

[sheerindianspeed]

A team without a match winning spinner and with a weak middle order batting lineup simply doesn't have a chance of displacing Australia for top slot!

Whenever Australia toured Pak, their best bowler happened to be Warne & McGill, ENgland 's problem is that they don't have a single decent spinner .

 

[sheerindianspeed]

Our back-up players are no worse than any test playing nation, and that includes Australia.

Forget about backups, your first choice middle order batsmen happen to be very mediocre.