Top 3 fast bowlers in tests ATM?

[BeeGee]

Hamich Bennett (hasn't played yet, but he's a better FC bowler than ListA and he was amazing in the Bangladesh ODI) , Dale Steyn, Ben Hilfenhaus

ROFLMAO

 

[aussie]

Well what I was disputing was this:



If that was the case, why did he give up keeping before he got the captaincy?

He gave up keeping in 2008 fully in tests after the Windies series because P Jaywardene began to step up as i explained in the post above this.

Also as i already said, he was already in his batting peak, scoring runs @ # 3 & keeping all the time from 2004-2008 (while M Jayawardene was skipper), before he became skipper last june/july. So its not as if keeping & batting @ # 3 was having a told on his batting before he became skipper.

But i'm sure if P Jaywardene had not stepped up in 08 & as Sanga took over from skipper last year, if he still had to keep in test while batting @ 3. His batting would have been affected, since that would have been too much of a workload.

 

[aussie]

Anderson took his wickets against Pakistan at an average of 13. Regardless of opposition that's nuts.
There's also the fact that Zaheer hasn't played in England for over 3 years and has major fitness worries for God knows how long. One decent series against Australia and one exceptional one against Bangladesh doesn't mean he deserves to be picked ahead of, who I would argue is, the best bowler in the world at utilising English conditions.

The indept display of PAKs batting this summer makes Andersons performances this year hard to judge TBH.

Do you think he took his swing bowling to another level this summer?. I dont think we can be sure. I just think its just a continuation of the consistentcy since 2007 that he has shown when he gets seaming conditions.

Againts good opposition batsmen. Hilfenhaus or Khan would be just as lethal in English conditions like Anderson.

 

[marc71178]

Also as i already said, he was already in his batting peak, scoring runs @ # 3 & keeping all the time from 2004-2008

Quite - that will explain why between 2004 and 2008 he scored 1345 runs @ 35.39 when he was keeping and 2835 @ 91.45 when he wasn't keeping.

 

[Jarquis]

The indept display of PAKs batting this summer makes Andersons performances this year hard to judge TBH.

Do you think he took his swing bowling to another level this summer?. I dont think we can be sure. I just think its just a continuation of the consistentcy since 2007 that he has shown when he gets seaming conditions.

Againts good opposition batsmen. Hilfenhaus or Khan would be just as lethal in English conditions like Anderson.

Anderson a level above imo. The way he can take the ball both ways at will separates him from the other two.

 

[aussie]

Quite - that will explain why between 2004 and 2008 he scored 1345 runs @ 35.39 when he was keeping and 2835 @ 91.45 when he wasn't keeping.

Its actually bigger than that in the specific time frame i suggest of Bulawayo 2004 - POS 2008. 38 while keeping & 108 without the gloves.

But given i have followed his career closely. The old adage stats dont tell the whole truth perfectly describes this. His 185 vs PAK 06 when keeping, was just as good as any innings he played during that period.

Thus i see the gap in averages more to do with the constant fluctuation & burden he dealth with keeping & not keeping between ZIM 04 - WI 08. Rather than keeping making him a worse batsman skillwise or caused technical flaws to come into his batting. Since we should have seen signs in ODIs & T20s.

If he was settled in the role (before he became captain last year) of keeping all the time @ batting @ # 3 (or anywhere in the top 5), like what Alec Stewart was between 96-2003. I certainly would have expected the runs to continue, since he is that versatile.

 

[aussie]

Anderson a level above imo. The way he can take the ball both ways at will separates him from the other two.

Both can do that as well. See 07 home summer vs IND & Ashes 09.

 

[zaremba]

Neither of them gets close to Jimmy's ability to bowl the inswinger and outswinger with equal ease (and to swing it a long way).

 

[marc71178]

Its actually bigger than that in the specific time frame i suggest of Bulawayo 2004 - POS 2008. 38 while keeping & 108 without the gloves.

But given i have followed his career closely. The old adage stats dont tell the whole truth perfectly describes this. His 185 vs PAK 06 when keeping, was just as good as any innings he played during that period.

Thus i see the gap in averages more to do with the constant fluctuation & burden he dealth with keeping & not keeping between ZIM 04 - WI 08. Rather than keeping making him a worse batsman skillwise or caused technical flaws to come into his batting. Since we should have seen signs in ODIs & T20s.

If he was settled in the role (before he became captain last year) of keeping all the time @ batting @ # 3 (or anywhere in the top 5), like what Alec Stewart was between 96-2003. I certainly would have expected the runs to continue, since he is that versatile.

If the numbers were close then I could accept the stats not telling the truth but they're miles apart - it is obvious that without the gloves he becomes a much better batsman.

 

[Jarquis]

Both can do that as well. See 07 home summer vs IND & Ashes 09.

Nah, neither can take the ball both ways, as consistently, as far and as late as Jimmy.

 

[Migara]

Sangakkara's played 32 Tests in which he was neither keeper nor captain, which was my point. I don't know what point you're trying to make there.

Are you attributing Mahela Jayawardene's entire captaincy reign or Sangakkara or something? Sangakkara's only been captain since last year; he gave up the gloves a few years back now. He didn't give up the gloves because he was captain - he gave up the gloves because he thought it'd help his batting. And low and behold..

SL management forced him to give up the gloves to take better use of him. Since giving up the gloves he averaged 69 with the bat. The other reason was Murali did not like Sanga's keeping in early 2000s, because he was bamboozling the guy behind the stumps as well as the one in front of it. But somehow Sanga improved his glove work and kept in ODIs. In tests PJ took over due to his superior skills in keeping Murali. But now Murali being done, PJ might lose his spot to more flashy Kaushal Silva or Dinesh Chandimal, who are excellent batsmen despite their inferior glove work. Keeping Randiv should be more easier than keeping Murali. In ODIs also, Sanga might lose the keepers spot for the same reason. Chandimal is ready, he already given a fearful bashing to the Indians. So Sanga might improve his ODI batting too.

 

[aussie]

If the numbers were close then I could accept the stats not telling the truth but they're miles apart - it is obvious that without the gloves he becomes a much better batsman.

But not necesarilly because keeping made him a worse player technically & skillwise. Which is distinction i'm making.

Keeping & being your teams # 3 are two super important roles in any test side. Between 2004-2008 not being totally settled on his role may have had a mental effect on his game. In a stronger team as i suggested, he probably would not have batted @ # 3, while keeping. Andy Flower batted @ # 5/6 while being ZIM best batsman & keeping, so most likey thats the mistake SRI made with him.

 

[aussie]

Neither of them gets close to Jimmy's ability to bowl the inswinger and outswinger with equal ease (and to swing it a long way).

Nah, neither can take the ball both ways, as consistently, as far and as late as Jimmy.

Well yes i'd agree that Anderson swing is a bit more big than those two when he gets perfect conditions. But even in English conditions i'd pick the other two ahead of him, just in case the sun comes out, since they would still be dangerous - while Anderson would lose alot of effectiveness.

 

[Jacknife]

Neither of them gets close to Jimmy's ability to bowl the inswinger and outswinger with equal ease (and to swing it a long way).

Yes, that's what separates Jimmy from the rest, is the amount and the lateness of the swing he generates. I thought this summer he was a lot more accurate
with his line and length, especially when the ball stopped swinging, he just kept the batsman under so much pressure, which before, even when it was swinging, he tended to give a few bad balls to relieve it.

 

[marc71178]

But not necesarilly because keeping made him a worse player technically & skillwise. Which is distinction i'm making.

So it's a complete coincidence that when he kept he averaged 55 runs per innings less than when he didn't (bearing in mind this is a period where you claimed that he kept wicket consistently when in fact he only kept 50% of the time)

 

[aussie]

So it's a complete coincidence that when he kept he averaged 55 runs per innings less than when he didn't (bearing in mind this is a period where you claimed that he kept wicket consistently when in fact he only kept 50% of the time)

Firstly I never said during the 2004-2008 period he kept wicket consistently:

Then has his batting began to peak in 2004 after the AUS series (home & away). When he scored those two big double hundreds vs ZIM & SA. Between 2004-20008 (vs WI in WI). He kept on & off as P Jaywardene emergened. But his batting was already in peak mode batting @ # 3 & scoring big runs as he shuffled between keeping & not keeping due to SRI team balance.

If you pick an Asian allt-time XI top 7 of:

Gavaskar
Majid Khan
Dravid
Tendulkar
Miandad
Sangakkara
Imran

Do you feel Sangakkara with the gloves on batting @ # 6 instead of # 3 in a stronger team would not score consistently?

 

[marc71178]

Also as i already said, he was already in his batting peak, scoring runs @ # 3 & keeping all the time from 2004-2008 (while M Jayawardene was skipper), before he became skipper last june/july. So its not as if keeping & batting @ # 3 was having a told on his batting before he became skipper.

I stand corrected. That clearly doesn't say he kept all the time.

 

[Migara]

Firstly I never said during the 2004-2008 period he kept wicket consistently:

If you pick an Asian allt-time XI top 7 of:

Gavaskar
Majid Khan
Dravid
Tendulkar
Miandad
Sangakkara
Imran

Do you feel Sangakkara with the gloves on batting @ # 6 instead of # 3 in a stronger team would not score consistently?

He may score consistently. But not at an average of 69. BTW an all time Asian XI top 7 looks different in my book. I'd have Sehwag and Gavaskar for opening. Batting line up may be superioe, but even in your list Sangakkara is clearly the bext best bastman behind SRT and perhaps Dravid. Sanga is a better batsman than Sehwag, Gavaskar, Miandad or Majid Khan. If you can settle for 70 runs from him in every match instead of 50, then you might drop a player like Miandad for a keeper like Engineer, who was prolific with the bat as well. In that case the lost 20 runs from selecting a better keeper will be covered by Sanga playing as a non-keeper.

 

[aussie]

I stand corrected. That clearly doesn't say he kept all the time.

Mistake in that repeat post. The above post from which i made the first post of the matter to PEWS is what i meant correctly as i summarized Sanga's career to the best of my knowledge as relgious follower:

This how Sanga's career evovled to to best of my knowledge.

From 2000-2004. He was basically SRI full-time keeper in tests, as he outsed Kaluwitharana. Although for team balance sake (the lack of another quality middle-order bat during this period, since SRI usually had a batsman batting @ # 7 alot), Kaluwitharana kept in a few tests. While Sanga's his batting was showed potential but wasn't the finised article.

Then has his batting began to peak in 2004 after the AUS series (home & away). When he scored those two big double hundreds vs ZIM & SA. Between 2004-20008 (vs WI in WI). He kept on & off as P Jaywardene emergened. But his batting was already in peak mode batting @ # 3 & scoring big runs as he shuffled between keeping & not keeping due to SRI team balance.

Then after the 2008 series vs WI. P Jayawardene became full-time keeper in tests. The last year Sanga became captain & the runs continued.

So quite clearly giving up the gloves had nothing to do with his batting form improving in tests.

 

[marc71178]

Except you now completely contradict your original assertation that keeping did not affect his batting (which you "proved" by the "fact" that his batting improved so much during 2004-08 when he was keeping full time - something that has been completely blown out of the water by the 55 run difference in average)