Time to drop Shoaib Akhtar?

[Nate]

Danish, a mediocre spinner at best, has been a failure at ODI level.Pak doesn't really like to play a specialist leggie in the shorter format of the game .

I would personally opt for afridi rather than the available specialist spinner coz Afridi can be useful with the bat and also coz he's a better fielder, in contrast Danish is a horrible fielder.

hes only played 10 ODIs... i dont think you can really tell yet.

O M R W Ave BBI 4w 5w SR Econ
Bowling 611.2 53 2500 106 23.58 5-24 3 2 34.6 4.08

those are his one-day stats... i reckon he surely should be getting more chances after that! 106 wickets from 69 matches at an econ rate of 4.08 - now thats quality. give him a few more chances on the international scene i reckon.

 

[Sanz]

You are absolutely right but there is one problem . Salvi , Rao , Munaf Patel are quite Indian names .
And mind you every young bowler who comes from Pakistan has qualities to become Mcgrath . Wasim ,Waqar were i guess in the same class as of Mcgrath .
I am also sick and tired of hearing that Munaf , Salvi and Rao are next Mcgrath . I hope they become but watching limited qualities and expressing big is'nt a wise thing .
There were Moh Akram and M Zahid from Pak . Zahid has bowled in excess of 155 with great accuracy and Akram was a county player but could'nt find a proper spot in the team .
There is a bowler Abdul Raoof and he has bowled even faster than Sami in the nets and he is still struggling to find a spot in the Pakistani side .
Tim I guess you are mixing this salvi , Rao and Munaf pat thing with the Pakistani team .
There are bunch of young speedsters who are still struggling in Pakistan to find a spot in the team as a spped machine cuz the compitition is immense among the speedsters there .
I know the line and length is very important but atleast a bowler should have some sort of pace for respectability . Line and length comes through experience. So please check the record sites and make sure where these Salvi , Munaf , and Rao thing belong to ................

Blah blah blah...i have been hearing this from last 3-4 years.

Bowling fast is sh!t if the bowl lands in the direction of thirdman and fineleg. Mohammad Akram was only known for his holding-like action, Md. Zahid was over rated. Rao, Rauf,Arafat, Md. Irshad etc are over rated. There is a reason why they are not being selected.

By the way, Rao is a Pakistani Bowler, And Wasim Jaffer was an Indian batsman.

 

[FRAZ]

^And by the way Wasim Jaffer was also a Pakistani bowler in late 80's . And one more that Zahid was praised by Brian Lara . and one more that Akram was an absolute beauty was coached for a brief time by Walsh and he was also quite praised by Walsh . And by the way ,Zahid holds record of being the youngest bowler for a milestone which I dont really remember . The only milestone that I remember is that Agarkar has taken fastest first 50 wickets. Which has been discussed like 364.5 million times not only here but every where else . And that record has overshadowed , Fastest 100, 150 , 200 , 250 wickets of Saqlain , Fastest 300 and 350 and 400 wickets by Waqar , and fastest 450 and only 500 wickets record in one day cricket by Wasim . Wasim Jaffer was truly a good bowler but had bad start and had bad impression after he gave away 18 runs in one over to David Boon . And hence helped Pakistan lose the semi final . Moh Zahid was a good bowler a great youngster but unfortunately stress fracture has really let him down and I think he has retired from cricket now . The whole Newzealand team said that this guy is totally unplayable cuz he has sheer pace line & length and swing . This was said after he took 13 wickets in the same test match against KIWIS .

 

[Sanz]

^And by the way Wasim Jaffer was also a Pakistani bowler in late 80's . And By the way Zahid Fazal was a batsman not a bowler .

Erm that would be Salim Jaffer, Also look at my post, It was a mistake and I updated it immidiately. I know who Zahid Fazal was, He was a batsman who once scored an 98* in Sharjah and got injured and had to be taken out.That was in the same match where Aquib Javed took hattrick and his career best 37/7.

 

[FRAZ]

^ Aww man , You reminded me of Aquib Javed now . He was'nt a bad choice either but I guess Akram was preffered over him . and then he retired . he has a wicked looking wife . By the way he has started fishries business now .

 

[Sanz]

And by the way ,Zahid holds record of being the youngest bowler for a milestone which I dont really remember . The only milestone that I remember is that Agarkar has taken fastest first 50 wickets. Which has been discussed like 364.5 million times not only here but every where else . And that record has overshadowed , Fastest 100, 150 , 200 , 250 wickets of Saqlain , Fastest 300 and 350 and 400 wickets by Waqar , and fastest 450 and only 500 wickets record in one day cricket by Wasim . Wasim Jaffer was truly a good bowler but had bad start and had bad impression after he gave away 18 runs in one over to David Boon . And hence helped Pakistan lose the semi final . Moh Zahid was a good bowler a great youngster but unfortunately stress fracture has really let him down and I think he has retired from cricket now . The whole Newzealand team said that this guy is totally unplayable cuz he has sheer pace line & length and swing . This was said after he took 13 wickets in the same test match against KIWIS .

I couldn't care less about Agarkar's record, I know how good or bad he is, so please tell this Agarkar thing to some of the members from AAAS. I am not part of that Society. I also know how Good Waqar was, so no need to bring his figures. I only objected when Pakistanis brag about 'Guls', 'Irshads', 'Raos' etc claiming them as the newfast bowling sensation from Pakistan whereas the fact is most of them are ordinary. And Salim Jaffar was Ordinary so were Md. Akram, Md. Zahid and Aquib Javed.

 

[FRAZ]

I swear never heard of that before . I swear the only good bowler I have seen bieng discussed here is Abdur Raoof . The poster who started all this have stated Salvi , Patel etc . Which bugged me a lot . And tried to mix up the nationalities . Happens many times . Cuz they look almost the same . Yup one thing I ll stick with is that . Good and Genuine fast bowlers have no shortage in Pakistan for sure and the above fast bowlers that I discussed were no Bull $hit for sure . With likes of Akram, Zahid ,Abur Raoof etc . And yup AAAS society and also every other member with patriotic ties and Patriotic Avtar and names have discussed the issue of Fastest 50 wicckets here .

 

[Choora]

I only objected when Pakistanis brag about 'Guls', 'Irshads', 'Raos' etc claiming them as the newfast bowling sensation from Pakistan whereas the fact is most of them are ordinary. And Salim Jaffar was Ordinary so were Md. Akram, Md. Zahid and Aquib Javed.

Bracketing the likes Aquib Javed with Salim Jaffer is nothing but pure ignorance. Aquib Javed wasn't exactly a great bowler but he's certainly a good one and i wouldn't call him ordinary.M Zahid was a real good prospect for Pakistan, unfortunately he lost his way coz of injury.
AS for Guls, Raos and Irshads, its impossible to pass a judgement primarily coz most of them haven't bowled a single over in International cricket.So again if someone is branding them as "ordinary" or as "great" then i guess its more of an emotional opinion than anything else.

I can say onething for sure that M Sami is proving to be someone very ordinary, and Pakistan would have been luckier had Aquib Javed been playing in the present Squad instead of Sami!

 

[Richard]

oh i forget to look at your side....a side with 3 spinners, 2 of whom are almost carbon copies of each other(malik and saqlain), a side that lacks depth in batting(saqlain at 8), and a side that has saleem elahi in it.

Malik plays as a batsman. I don't think many would dispute that all three spinners are capable on a turning pitch; Saqlain and Danish are IMO more than capable on non-turners.
And a side that has Salim Elahi in it, yes - Salim Elahi with his ODI average of 36.72 and his domestic-one-day average of 61.37.
IMO he's always been treated very, very, very harshly indeed.

 

[Muddaser]

"Rao, Rauf,Arafat, Md. Irshad etc are over rated"

Irshad YES - Hes very quick but all over the place. Has a no ball problem too.

Arafat - Wannabe Waqar Younis

Rauf - Gets alot of bounce at high speed but cant reverse swing the ball.

Rao Iftikhar - You'll regret saying hes over rated. He looks the real deal.

Fraz is referring to Ragavendra Rao who has been hyped up by Srinath.

 

[tooextracool]

Malik plays as a batsman. I don't think many would dispute that all three spinners are capable on a turning pitch; Saqlain and Danish are IMO more than capable on non-turners.

yes i know that they are capable on a turning pitch but it would be stupid to go in with 3 spinners on every wicket especially with saqlain and malik who are almost identical. it would also be an extremely risky move to go in with 3 spinners on a seamer friendly wicket, razzaq as first change doesnt sound too threatening.
and the batting ends at 7, and considering that moin khan and malik have never been reliable batsmen that is a very weak batting side indeed.

And a side that has Salim Elahi in it, yes - Salim Elahi with his ODI average of 36.72 and his domestic-one-day average of 61.37.
IMO he's always been treated very, very, very harshly indeed.

and 36 isnt exactly brilliant, especially if you take out some of those cheap runs he got against zimbabwe and the fact that most of his runs have come at home . personally asim kamal has the potential to average at least 40 in ODI cricket.

 

[Richard]

yes i know that they are capable on a turning pitch but it would be stupid to go in with 3 spinners on every wicket especially with saqlain and malik who are almost identical. it would also be an extremely risky move to go in with 3 spinners on a seamer friendly wicket, razzaq as first change doesnt sound too threatening.

Stop going on about Malik and Saqlain being similar - so what? Why the hell does it matter? They're both good bowlers on turning wickets.
And personally I'd back myself with Shoaib, Shabbir, Razzaq, Saqlain, Kaneria\Mushtaq on a seamer, because all of them have proven to be capable on seamers.
Equally, all of Shoaib, Shabbir, Saqlain, Mushtaq\Kanera, Malik have proven to be good on turners.

and the batting ends at 7, and considering that moin khan and malik have never been reliable batsmen that is a very weak batting side indeed.

No, Malik's never been a reliable batsman, that's why he averages 46.44 in the top four.
And no, Moin's not scored the runs he should have done in the one-day game, domestically or internationally. Any better suggestions as a wicketkeeper?

and 36 isnt exactly brilliant, especially if you take out some of those cheap runs he got against zimbabwe and the fact that most of his runs have come at home . personally asim kamal has the potential to average at least 40 in ODI cricket.

Err, yes, that would be why his away average is 36.21, and why his average when games against minor sides are removed (remember, Zimbabwe before WC2003 are sub-ODI-standard only in your fantasies) is actually lower (given that he somehow managed to fail against Kenya and Holland, and make just 63 against Namibia.
The only major side he's failed against has been India (7.75). He's also underperformed, though not terribly, against Australia (29.75) and New Zealand (30.00). Against West Indies, England, South Africa and Sri Lanka his combined average is 42.37.
Personally I think he has the potential to average about 50 in ODI cricket. So if Kamal could average 40 - well done, but not good enough to displace Elahi at least.

 

[tooextracool]

Stop going on about Malik and Saqlain being similar - so what? Why the hell does it matter? They're both good bowlers on turning wickets.

thats the point, they're both good on turning wickets, but how stupid would it be to have both of them on a seamers wicket? or indeed even a flat wicket?

And personally I'd back myself with Shoaib, Shabbir, Razzaq, Saqlain, Kaneria\Mushtaq on a seamer, because all of them have proven to be capable on seamers..

rubbish, none of saqlain,mushtaq and malik have managed to pick up wickets successfully on seamers, indeed that is what you want on seamers...to pick up wickets! and if shoaib has one of his usual off days god bless what shabbir will have to do in his 10 overs to prevent the opposition from posting anywhere less than 250.

No, Malik's never been a reliable batsman, that's why he averages 46.44 in the top four. ..

at 3:

1 3 caught 1 L PSO Tri 5 v Aus in Ken 2002 at Nairobi (Gym) [1871]
37 3 run out 1 N PSO Tri F v Aus in Ken 2002 at Nairobi (Gym) [1873]
1 3 lbw 1 L ICC KO 1 v SL in SL 2002/03 at Colombo (RPS) (d/n) [1874]
3 3 run out 1 W Asia Cup 3 v BD in SL 2004 at Colombo (SSC) [2145]
118 3 run out 1 W Asia Cup 5 v HK in SL 2004 at Colombo (SSC) [2147]
4 3 caught 1 L Asia Cup 8 v SL in SL 2004 at Colombo (RPS) (d/n) [2150]
143 3 caught 1 W Asia Cup 10 v Ind in SL 2004 at Colombo (RPS) (d/n) [2152]
48 3 bowled 2 W Asia Cup 12 v BD in SL 2004 at Colombo (RPS) (d/n) [2154]
68 3 caught 1 W V'con Cup 1 v Ind in NL 2004 at Amstelveen [2157]
36 3 run out 2 L V'con Cup F v Aus in NL 2004 at Amstelveen [2162]
0 3 caught 2 W ICC KO 7 v Ken in Eng 2004 at Birmingham [2174]

so hes really only had 2 successful innings(above 50) against the quality sides, 6 failures and 1 ok innings. all 3 of those innings have come recently.

at 4:

111* 4 not out 1 W 2nd ODI v WI in UAE 2001/02 at Sharjah (d/n) [1808]
37 4 bowled 2 L 3rd ODI v WI in UAE 2001/02 at Sharjah (d/n) [1810]
DNB - - 2 W ICC KO 10 v NL in SL 2002/03 at Colombo (SSC) [1883]
4 4 run out 1 W 5th ODI v NZ in Pak 2003/04 at Rawalpindi (d/n) [2074]
2 4 caught 2 L NW Int O v Aus in Eng 2004 at Lord's [2166]

again only 1 successful inning.....

115 1 caught 1 W 3rd ODI v NZ in Pak 2002 at Lahore (d/n) [1835]
12 2 run out 2 L M'cco Cup 5 v SA in Mor 2002 at Tangier [1864]
3 1 lbw 2 W PSO Tri 3 v Ken in Ken 2002 at Nairobi (Gym) [1869]

1 successful inning followed by 2 failures.
so really hes had 4 successful innings, 2 decent innings and 10 failures, amazing how consistent hes been!!

And no, Moin's not scored the runs he should have done in the one-day game, domestically or internationally. Any better suggestions as a wicketkeeper?

no but i would strengthen my batting lineup by dropping one of the excess spinners and replacing him with asim kamal. moin at 8 makes the batting seem more stable.

Err, yes, that would be why his away average is 36.21, and why his average when games against minor sides are removed (remember, Zimbabwe before WC2003 are sub-ODI-standard only in your fantasies) is actually lower (given that he somehow managed to fail against Kenya and Holland, and make just 63 against Namibia.

and how many times do i have to say it, zimbabwe were useless after 2000, so useless in fact that they were whitewashed by a pakistan side 5-0 just before the world cup where the same pakistan side were disgraced.

The only major side he's failed against has been India (7.75). He's also underperformed, though not terribly, against Australia (29.75) and New Zealand (30.00). Against West Indies, England, South Africa and Sri Lanka his combined average is 42.37.

and how much of that has to do with his performances at home?

Personally I think he has the potential to average about 50 in ODI cricket. So if Kamal could average 40 - well done, but not good enough to displace Elahi at least.

and the fact that elahi hasnt suggests that he shouldnt be there in the first place.

 

[Sanz]

Fraz is referring to Ragavendra Rao who has been hyped up by Srinath.

I bet most Indians dont even know who he is. As for Srinath hyping him up, I dont believe he is, he must have talked about him in his column jus like Akhtar talked about Irshad in his interview in NZ.

 

[Richard]

thats the point, they're both good on turning wickets, but how stupid would it be to have both of them on a seamers wicket? or indeed even a flat wicket?

Not very stupid at all, as explained below:

rubbish, none of saqlain,mushtaq and malik have managed to pick up wickets successfully on seamers, indeed that is what you want on seamers...to pick up wickets! and if shoaib has one of his usual off days god bless what shabbir will have to do in his 10 overs to prevent the opposition from posting anywhere less than 250.

Shoaib's usual off-days, hmm, yes.
Saqlain, Kaneria and Mushtaq, like it or not and I know you don't, are more than capable of bowling with the requistite accuracy and spin to take wickets and stop the batsman coming at them and scoring on even the greenest or deadest of pitches. Malik doesn't, so you don't bowl him when the pitch doesn't suit him, you bowl Razzaq instead.

at 3:

1 3 caught 1 L PSO Tri 5 v Aus in Ken 2002 at Nairobi (Gym) [1871]
37 3 run out 1 N PSO Tri F v Aus in Ken 2002 at Nairobi (Gym) [1873]
1 3 lbw 1 L ICC KO 1 v SL in SL 2002/03 at Colombo (RPS) (d/n) [1874]
3 3 run out 1 W Asia Cup 3 v BD in SL 2004 at Colombo (SSC) [2145]
118 3 run out 1 W Asia Cup 5 v HK in SL 2004 at Colombo (SSC) [2147]
4 3 caught 1 L Asia Cup 8 v SL in SL 2004 at Colombo (RPS) (d/n) [2150]
143 3 caught 1 W Asia Cup 10 v Ind in SL 2004 at Colombo (RPS) (d/n) [2152]
48 3 bowled 2 W Asia Cup 12 v BD in SL 2004 at Colombo (RPS) (d/n) [2154]
68 3 caught 1 W V'con Cup 1 v Ind in NL 2004 at Amstelveen [2157]
36 3 run out 2 L V'con Cup F v Aus in NL 2004 at Amstelveen [2162]
0 3 caught 2 W ICC KO 7 v Ken in Eng 2004 at Birmingham [2174]

so hes really only had 2 successful innings(above 50) against the quality sides, 6 failures and 1 ok innings. all 3 of those innings have come recently.

at 4:

111* 4 not out 1 W 2nd ODI v WI in UAE 2001/02 at Sharjah (d/n) [1808]
37 4 bowled 2 L 3rd ODI v WI in UAE 2001/02 at Sharjah (d/n) [1810]
DNB - - 2 W ICC KO 10 v NL in SL 2002/03 at Colombo (SSC) [1883]
4 4 run out 1 W 5th ODI v NZ in Pak 2003/04 at Rawalpindi (d/n) [2074]
2 4 caught 2 L NW Int O v Aus in Eng 2004 at Lord's [2166]

again only 1 successful inning.....

115 1 caught 1 W 3rd ODI v NZ in Pak 2002 at Lahore (d/n) [1835]
12 2 run out 2 L M'cco Cup 5 v SA in Mor 2002 at Tangier [1864]
3 1 lbw 2 W PSO Tri 3 v Ken in Ken 2002 at Nairobi (Gym) [1869]

1 successful inning followed by 2 failures.
so really hes had 4 successful innings, 2 decent innings and 10 failures, amazing how consistent hes been!!

And instead of expecting someone to be successful every time they go to the crease, shall we look at the relevant stuff:
Perfectly fair to get rid of the matches against Hong Kong, Kenya and Bangladesh, so let's do that, and make a combined average at opening, three and four instead of trying to seperate them out and make it look less impressive:
47.58
Is the result.
So you can see that when the odd failure against a minor side which doesn't matter is removed, his performance becomes even better.
And I'm sorry, even you will find it hard to do get around that.

no but i would strengthen my batting lineup by dropping one of the excess spinners and replacing him with asim kamal. moin at 8 makes the batting seem more stable.

Personally I think there's enough quality in the top-order, and that in this case five bowlers is the better option.

and how many times do i have to say it, zimbabwe were useless after 2000, so useless in fact that they were whitewashed by a pakistan side 5-0 just before the world cup where the same pakistan side were disgraced.

A Pakistan side who performed rather better than they did at the World Cup. Had they played as poorly as they did against England and India, they'd have lost at least once to Zimbabwe.
I don't really give a damn how many times you say it - Zimbabwe merited ODI and Test status up to April 2003 when all their best players had gone bar 2 or 3 as far as I'm concerned. You can't prove otherwise and I can't prove likewise.

and how much of that has to do with his performances at home?

Have a look if you feel like it.

and the fact that elahi hasnt suggests that he shouldnt be there in the first place.

No, it doesn't - the fact that he's averaged 36 suggests he should have been picked a hell of a lot more than he has.

 

[marc71178]

Strange how you can use that average after 13 appearances as credit-worthy, but not rate someone like Strauss who has played a similar number of games, because it's not enough to judge...

 

[Richard]

I've not said that Malik is a proven success at the top of the order at all - just that he's done more than enough to merit plenty more goes there. And given that I don't rate Imran Farhat at all I'd prefer see Malik opening, because that allows you to let Salim Elahi in at three. Nor do I want Afridi in the top-order ATM, because I've seen no evidence he's regained any sense in his batting.

 

[tooextracool]

Not very stupid at all, as explained below:

Shoaib's usual off-days, hmm, yes.
Saqlain, Kaneria and Mushtaq, like it or not and I know you don't, are more than capable of bowling with the requistite accuracy and spin to take wickets and stop the batsman coming at them and scoring on even the greenest or deadest of pitches. Malik doesn't, so you don't bowl him when the pitch doesn't suit him, you bowl Razzaq instead.

oh yes and where have i argued that they cant stop them from scoring agains them on the greenest wickets? but what fool for a captain tries to restrict scoring on green wickets instead of taking wickets? yes id rather settle for 200/3 from 50 overs instead of 150 all out. smart that.

And instead of expecting someone to be successful every time they go to the crease, shall we look at the relevant stuff:
Perfectly fair to get rid of the matches against Hong Kong, Kenya and Bangladesh, so let's do that, and make a combined average at opening, three and four instead of trying to seperate them out and make it look less impressive:
47.58
Is the result.
So you can see that when the odd failure against a minor side which doesn't matter is removed, his performance becomes even better.
And I'm sorry, even you will find it hard to do get around that.

2 things
1) a failure against a minor side has to be included as such
2) have a look at his record outside the sub continent......

Personally I think there's enough quality in the top-order, and that in this case five bowlers is the better option.

oh there is is there?
how many of those are proven players?
hameed- has never been consistent, his good record has largely to do with the series against bangladesh and against the substandard NZ attack in pak
elahi- again if he was proven hed be part of the side!
malik- not proven for reasons mentioned above
inzamam - finally one quality player
youhana- decent but has never been consistent
razzaq - fine quality batsman #2
moin - not reliable

oh yes amazing that with 2 quality batsmen in the side that this side is 'quality' and can go in with only 6 batsman and a keeper.

A Pakistan side who performed rather better than they did at the World Cup. Had they played as poorly as they did against England and India, they'd have lost at least once to Zimbabwe.

rubbish you would like to believe that that was the case. but the fact is zimbabwe were extremely poor and pakistan werent brilliant either. yet they lost 5-0. at home i might add. if they were even competitive they would be able to at least win one game at home.

I don't really give a damn how many times you say it - Zimbabwe merited ODI and Test status up to April 2003 when all their best players had gone bar 2 or 3 as far as I'm concerned. You can't prove otherwise and I can't prove likewise.

thye might have deserved test status but they were never test class. their entire side revolved around andy flower and to an extent heath streak with the ball.

Have a look if you feel like it..

i have and i dont like the results, outside of performances against zimbabwe havent been anything brilliant.

No, it doesn't - the fact that he's averaged 36 suggests he should have been picked a hell of a lot more than he has.

how stupid is this?if he hasnt averaged 50 and has averaged on 36(largely due to performances at home and against zimbabwe) how can you pick him over a player who has the potential to average 40+??

 

[warrioryohannan]

to the on going degate...


I recently read Woolmers interview in which he said that he's looking for a batsman for Pakistan OD team that can finish off matches, basically someone who can stick till the very end instead of throwing wkts in a panic (this happened after Pak lost the last 2 OD to Aus in a panic ,which they should really have won.

I was just thinking as to why don't Pak try Kamal at sixth slot?? he might provide some stability to their fragile batting line up.He seems to be more suited to the longer version of the game but might prove to be useful in OD too.

 

[marc71178]

In other words, he's going to offer Bevan Pakistani citizenship?