The Greats

[Fusion]

Akram and Hadlee, arguably the 2 greatest pace bowlers of all time, ARE NOT GREAT?

That's a sorry indictment on the credibility of this forum.

I couldn't agree more with this statement! How can anyone not consider these two "great" is beyond me.

 

[thierry henry]

An average in the low 30s isn't really all that awful for a spin bowler, and while Sobers did not bowl spin all the time, it is generally accepted that it was his spin bowling that raised his average beyond what it otherwise might have been.

Abdul Qadir - 236 wickets @ 32.81
Lance Gibbs - 309 wickets @ 29.09
EAS Prasanna - 189 wickets @ 30.38
Bishen Bedi - 266 wickets @ 28.71
Ashley Mallett - 132 wickets @ 29.85
Saqlain Mushtaq - 208 wickets @ 29.84

Indeed, even Anil Kumble averages 28.39.

Regardless, the average does not tell the full story with Sobers in particular. Sobers didn't have the option of not bowling when the real bowlers knocked over the opposition, or just coming on to clean up the tail. He didn't only bowl in favourable conditions, he wouldn't stop bowling for the day if he was getting hit around, and he couldn't play just a defensive or just an attacking role. Hell, he couldn't even just stick to one style of bowling. Sobers was a great bowler because with the huge burden of responsibility he carried he still managed to be so successful, AND average close to 60 with the bat while he did it.

Put simply, Sobers is a better batsman, bowler and fielder than Kallis, and not just by a small margin in any capacity either.

So he was a great bowler now?

He quite clearly was NOT a great bowler. If his spinners were the bad part of an average of 34, then they must have been pretty bad.

I don't get the list of bowlers you have provided, they all have clearly better records than Sobers so what's your point?

You still haven't made any real points about Sobers' bowling, just emotive statements suggesting that he was somehow fighting great adversity every time he bowled

 

[Slats4ever]

Lara's 400* - Yes I mean ffs
Ganguly (people have nominated him based on his one day batting ability) - Ummm how about no. It would be a travesty if he was considered great
Trueman - Yes
Jones' 200 - Yes
Neil Harvey - No. was good but was in the don's shadow
Frank Worrell - No

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

So he was a great bowler now?

He quite clearly was NOT a great bowler. If his spinners were the bad part of an average of 34, then they must have been pretty bad.

I don't get the list of bowlers you have provided, they all have clearly better records than Sobers so what's your point?

You still haven't made any real points about Sobers' bowling, just emotive statements suggesting that he was somehow fighting great adversity every time he bowled

They have marginally better records than Sobers, which is the point. You think that Abdul Qadir was one of the greatest ever leg-spinners, but Sobers was rubbish because he averages 2 more with the ball? Give me a break. I suppose Thommo was a mediocre bowler because he averaged 28 as well? Not to mention Larwood, Wes Hall etc? While George Lohmann was the greatest there's ever been?

Anyway, I have made all sorts of points about Sobers bowling, but obviously the only evidence you will accept is statistical, so I'm not going to bother.

Suffice to say, as I have, that Sobers was not just slightly but much better than Kallis, with bat, ball and in the field. Kallis, if he manages to perform against Australia some time, may have a case to be a great at the end of his career as well, but Sobers is the only player who can come within touching distance of Bradman, and is so far ahead of every other all-rounder in history that it's not funny. The fact that his average finished up as 34 with the ball is neither here nor there, as he remained a genuine threat with the ball throughout his career against all opposition and was one of the most prolific wicket takers of his era, which is far more than Kallis can claim.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Hadlee not a great? That's a good one.


Lara's 400* - No
Ganguly (people have nominated him based on his one day batting ability) - No
Trueman - Yes
Jones' 200 - Yes
Neil Harvey - No
Frank Worrell - Yes

 

[roseboy64]

The candidates up for voting for the next 23 and half hours with voting closing 9 PM IST tomorrow:

Lara's 400*
Ganguly (people have nominated him based on his one day batting ability)
Trueman
Jones' 200
Neil Harvey
Frank Worrell

Yes
No
Yes
No
No
Yes

 

[UncleTheOne]

You could argue that those three were better bowlers than Trueman but to say nowhere near is a rash statement, Fred Trueman is up there with the truely great fast bowlers of all time.

 

[Blaze]

Akram and Hadlee, arguably the 2 greatest pace bowlers of all time, ARE NOT GREAT?

That's a sorry indictment on the credibility of this forum.

I would like to know how the people who voted against them could justify them not being greats. Hadlee has a case for being the best bowler of all time and is certainly in the top 5 or 6.

 

[Benny2k1]

Lara's 400* - Yes
Ganguly - No
Trueman - Yes
Jones' 200 - Yes
Neil Harvey - No
Frank Worrell - Yes

My nominations/ideas
second lara 277
How about KP century at the oval?
Laras 501 ?
Ashraful Vs Aus
Atherton 185 in Johannesburg

 

[jamesicus]

"I will base my nominations on those players who, in my eyes and experience, have achieved greatness by elevating and enhancing the game in extraordinary ways -- not necessarily just on-field accomplishments -- although I do include some players (or collection of players) strictly because of the sheer enormity and excellence of their career performance."

My list to date:

D. G. Bradman
J. B. Hobbs

At this time I will concentrate on my West Indies nominees -- batsmen and all-rounders here -- bowlers later.. I have a long standing association -- or rather familiarity -- with "windies" cricketers mostly because of their involvement with the Lancashire League (LL).

In addition to being the leading cricketer on the pre-war West Indies test match teams, Learie Constantine was the outstanding pre-war all round professional in the Lancashire League. His batting, bowling and fielding feats were legendary -- he still holds the record wicket haul: 10 for 10 in 1937. It was not only his magical skills that captivated LL fans -- he was widely loved for his warm and engaging off the field personality. He was also responsible for introducing several other test caliber WI professionals to the LL such as George Headley and Manny Martindale. Learie Constantine worked tirelessly to promote racial harmony and goodwill for servicemen of colour in WW2 England and in retirement represented the WI as an Ambassador to the UK. He was knighted for his accomplishments and was subsequently elevated to the Peerage.

George Headley was one of the world's greatest batsmen in the 1930s -- considered by many to be second only to Don Bradman. He certainly was the most outstanding batsman in the LL. His marvelous stroke play was beautiful to behold -- I saw him bat many times in the late 1930s when he was in his prime and later in 1950 when he was in his 40s -- past his prime but still great.

Everton Weekes was, in my opinion, the greatest batsman I saw play in person after the 1948 Ashes Team had departed England -- he was the most outstanding batsman in the post-war Lancashire League. He possessed a dazzling array of majestic strokes and amazingly quick foot work. He scored runs at a prolific rate -- he was a virtual run machine -- and was the first LL batsman to score a double century (he did it at Burnley Turf Moor -- I was there) beating the previous (pre-war) record of 192 by Learie Constantine. He was also knighted for his services to cricket (more about the other two members of the three Ws later).

My nominee for the greatest all-round cricketer ever is the incomparable Gary Sobers. His skills and performances with bat and ball are the stuff of legend. In my opinion there is simply no one else who is eligible for the title of the greatest all-round cricketer ever. He went on to become an outstanding coach and a tireless worker for international cricket. He was subsquently knighted for his services to cricket.

When I first saw Brian Lara bat I was struck by the similarity of his stroke play and footwork to that of George Headley and Everton Weekes -- then it struck me that he is a combination of both of those great batsmen. There is no doubt in my mind that he will go down in cricket history as one of the greatest of all batsmen.

My Updated list:

D. G. Bradman
J. B. Hobbs
L.N. Constantine
G. A. Headley
E. D. C. Weekes
G. S. Sobers
B. C. Lara.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

None of those should get nominated if Lara and Laxman's didn't.

 

[social]

"I will base my nominations on those players who, in my eyes and experience, have achieved greatness by elevating and enhancing the game in extraordinary ways -- not necessarily just on-field accomplishments -- although I do include some players (or collection of players) strictly because of the sheer enormity and excellence of their career performance."

My list to date:

D. G. Bradman
J. B. Hobbs

At this time I will concentrate on my West Indies nominees -- batsmen and all-rounders here -- bowlers later.. I have a long standing association -- or rather familiarity -- with "windies" cricketers mostly because of their involvement with the Lancashire League (LL).

In addition to being the leading cricketer on the pre-war West Indies test match teams, Learie Constantine was the outstanding pre-war all round professional in the Lancashire League. His batting, bowling and fielding feats were legendary -- he still holds the record wicket haul: 10 for 10 in 1937. It was not only his magical skills that captivated LL fans -- he was widely loved for his warm and engaging off the field personality. He was also responsible for introducing several other test caliber WI professionals to the LL such as George Headley and Manny Martindale. Learie Constantine worked tirelessly to promote racial harmony and goodwill for servicemen of colour in WW2 England and in retirement represented the WI as an Ambassador to the UK. He was knighted for his accomplishments and was subsequently elevated to the Peerage.

George Headley was one of the world's greatest batsmen in the 1930s -- considered by many to be second only to Don Bradman. He certainly was the most outstanding batsman in the LL. His marvelous stroke play was beautiful to behold -- I saw him bat many times in the late 1930s when he was in his prime and later in 1950 when he was in his 40s -- past his prime but still great.

Everton Weekes was, in my opinion, the greatest batsman I saw play in person after the 1948 Ashes Team had departed England -- he was the most outstanding batsman in the post-war Lancashire League. He possessed a dazzling array of majestic strokes and amazingly quick foot work. He scored runs at a prolific rate -- he was a virtual run machine -- and was the first LL batsman to score a double century (he did it at Burnley Turf Moor -- I was there) beating the previous (pre-war) record of 192 by Learie Constantine. He was also knighted for his services to cricket (more about the other two members of the three Ws later).

My nominee for the greatest all-round cricketer ever is the incomparable Gary Sobers. His skills and performances with bat and ball are the stuff of legend. In my opinion there is simply no one else who is eligible for the title of the greatest all-round cricketer ever. He went on to become an outstanding coach and a tireless worker for international cricket. He was subsquently knighted for his services to cricket.

When I first saw Brian Lara bat I was struck by the similarity of his stroke play and footwork to that of George Headley and Everton Weekes -- then it struck me that he is a combination of both of those great batsmen. There is no doubt in my mind that he will go down in cricket history as one of the greatest of all batsmen.

My Updated list:

D. G. Bradman
J. B. Hobbs
L.N. Constantine
G. A. Headley
E. D. C. Weekes
G. S. Sobers
B. C. Lara.

All great players

 

[honestbharani]

Lara's 400* - Yes
Ganguly - yes
Trueman - Yes
Jones' 200 - Yes
Neil Harvey - yes
Frank Worrell - Yes

 

[jamesicus]

"I will base my nominations on those players who, in my eyes and experience, have achieved greatness by elevating and enhancing the game in extraordinary ways -- not necessarily just on-field accomplishments -- although I do include some players (or collection of players) strictly because of the sheer enormity and excellence of their career performance."

My list to date:

D. G. Bradman
J. B. Hobbs
L.N. Constantine
G. A. Headley
E. D. C. Weekes
G. S. Sobers
B. C. Lara.

There is a trio of West Indies fast bowlers who I will add to my list:

Curtly Ambrose, Michael Holding and Malcom Marshall. All were devastatingly fast to me -- hostile, and deadly. I think Ambrose -- "the tall destroyer" was the most destructive and effective,

I would like to add Manny Martindale to my list out of respect and nostalgia, but in truth he did not quite have their abilities. I first saw Manny Martindale play in 1938 and watched him many times after that up to 1950. He was the first really fast bowler I saw and his pace impressed me enormously. I saw him play more than any other professional in the Lancashire league. I will give him an affectionate honorable mention here because he (along with Learie Constantine who also was a very fast bowler) was one of the pioneer WI fast bowlers -- a precursor of a long and illustrious line.

The Martindale family lived just four houses away from my grandparents and I used to visit their house frequently -- I played cricket with their two sons, Fred and Colin: we were good friends. I have known the Martindale family as long as any in my lifetime (over 70 years) and I still correspond with two of Manny's grand-daughters (daughters of Fred, who died several years ago).

My updated list:

D. G. Bradman
J. B. Hobbs
L.N. Constantine
G. A. Headley
E. D. C. Weekes
G. S. Sobers
B. C. Lara.
C. E. L. Ambrose
M. A. Holding
M. D. Marshall

 

[SJS]

Any way the list of greats so far is as follows:

D.G.Bradman
G.Sobers
S.K.Warne
B.C.Lara
M.Muralitharan
S.R.Tendulkar
Imran Khan
G.D.McGrath
I.V.A.Richards
M.Marshall
J.Hobbs
Ashes 2005 series

Add a wicket keeper, get Sobers to open (he has opened in a test I think) and what a great side.

1. Hobbs
2. Sobers
3. Bradman
4. Richards
5. Tendulkar
6. Lara
7. Imran
   [*]Wicket Keeper
8. Marshall
9. Warne
10. MacGrath/Murali

WOW !!

 

[Anil]

the all-time greats i have had the privilege to watch:

india

gavaskar
tendulkar
all-time great in the making - dravid

pakistan

imran
akram
miandad

new zealand

hadlee
would like to include crowe but while he was one of the finest batsmen of his era, just hasn't done enough to rate as an all-time great

australia

chappell
border
waugh
lillee
mcgrath
warne
marsh
healy
ponting - not quite there yet

west indies

richards
lara
marshall
ambrose

england

botham
knott
boycott
flintoff - if he keeps this up, he is on his way

south africa

donald

sri lanka

murali

 

[Buddhmaster]

Holy crap jamesicus, you are old

Sorry

 

[jamesicus]

"I will base my nominations on those players who, in my eyes and experience, have achieved greatness by elevating and enhancing the game in extraordinary ways -- not necessarily just on-field accomplishments -- although I do include some players (or collection of players) strictly because of the sheer enormity and excellence of their career performance."

My list to date:

D. G. Bradman
J. B. Hobbs
L.N. Constantine
G. A. Headley
E. D. C. Weekes
G. S. Sobers
B. C. Lara.
C. E. L. Ambrose
M. A. Holding
M. D. Marshall

Well, I have to add the two other great West Indies "Ws" (to accompany Everton Weekes) -- Frank Worrell and Clyde Walcott -- and Viv Richards to my list as I leave my WI candidates. Come to think of it, my WI selections would make a pretty formidable team:

G. A. Headley
E. D. C. Weekes
B. C. Lara
F. M. M. Worrell (Capt)
G. S. Sobers
C. L. Walcott (WK)
I. V. A. Richards
L.N. Constantine
C. E. L. Ambrose
M. A. Holding
M. D. Marshall.

I think Worrell could work out the spin bowling chores alright.

My updated list:

D. G. Bradman
J. B. Hobbs
L.N. Constantine
G. A. Headley
E. D. C. Weekes
G. S. Sobers
B. C. Lara.
C. E. L. Ambrose
M. A. Holding
M. D. Marshall
F. M. M. Worrell
C. L. Walcott
I. V. A. Richards

 

[thierry henry]

They have marginally better records than Sobers, which is the point. You think that Abdul Qadir was one of the greatest ever leg-spinners, but Sobers was rubbish because he averages 2 more with the ball? Give me a break. I suppose Thommo was a mediocre bowler because he averaged 28 as well? Not to mention Larwood, Wes Hall etc? While George Lohmann was the greatest there's ever been?

Anyway, I have made all sorts of points about Sobers bowling, but obviously the only evidence you will accept is statistical, so I'm not going to bother.

Suffice to say, as I have, that Sobers was not just slightly but much better than Kallis, with bat, ball and in the field. Kallis, if he manages to perform against Australia some time, may have a case to be a great at the end of his career as well, but Sobers is the only player who can come within touching distance of Bradman, and is so far ahead of every other all-rounder in history that it's not funny. The fact that his average finished up as 34 with the ball is neither here nor there, as he remained a genuine threat with the ball throughout his career against all opposition and was one of the most prolific wicket takers of his era, which is far more than Kallis can claim.

That's completely absurd. The fact that he averaged 34 with the ball means that throughout his career he was a "threat" to take 1 wicket for every 34 runs conceded. Which really isn't very threatening at all.

Statistics are not just some magical numbers floating around out there, they are a statement of what actually happened and what a player actually did. Sobers played for a long time, did a lot of bowling, and took 1 wicket for every 34 runs conceded. In the context of test cricker history that makes him a relatively mediocre bowler. Nuff said.

 

[thierry henry]

And I never said Qadir was a great leg-spinner. Here's another statistical statement for you- I think his record proves that he was a pretty good bowler at best.

Test crickets should be measured by actual achievements with bat and ball, not talent or potential.

The bowling statistics of Qadir and Sobers prove that in terms of taking wickets whilst not conceding runs (i.e. the job of every bowler who has ever played) they were both relatively mediocre. Either they were consistently mediocre, or sometimes good and sometimes extremely bad. Do I have to explain the entire concept of cricketing statistics? If someone plays as many games as Sobers or Qadir there are not many ways that you can argue sanely against self-evident statistics.