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The Greatest Overs Ever

Migara

Migara

International Coach
Fuller Pilch said:
Vaas was very good but looking at left arm ODI seam bowlers he's only the 6th best compared to Wasim, Starc, Boult, Bracken, and Johnson. Better than Zaheer though.
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Wasim and Starc of course I agree. Bracken is par. But others . . . .
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Come on bro, they both failed against Australia. Waqar faired worse but thats no argument in Vaas' favor. Vaas averages 30 plus against all serious batting sides of his era while the only side Waqar failed against is Australia.

You argue Waqar took more tailend wickets, but Waqar also took more wickets period than Vaas while playing 60 less matches and competing with wickets with two of the greatest OD bowlers of all-time, Wasim and Saqlain, and Vaas played nearly twice as much against minnows.

Frankly, this is just refusing to look at their records in any objective way.
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This is the fundamental difference in assessing Tests and ODIs. ODIs you can win by restricting the opposition too. That is why the ER comes in.
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Migara said:
Wasim and Starc of course I agree. Bracken is par. But others . . . .
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Boult has taken 187 wickets in 99 ODIs at 23.97 and has an e/r under 5 when 350+ scores are common. In 15 ODIs vs Australia (the most important ones for a Kiwi), he has taken 39 wickets at 16.94.
 
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S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Migara said:
This is the fundamental difference in assessing Tests and ODIs. ODIs you can win by restricting the opposition too. That is why the ER comes in.
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A good ER cant compensate for a lack of wickets. And Vaas' ER is good but hardly outstanding like Pollock, Wasim and McGrath.

Waqar won plenty more matches than Vaas did by simply bowling the teams out.
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Vaas wouldn't make an ATG NZ ODI team ahead of Hadlee, Bond, and Boult. He would rate behind Ewen Chatfield too.

Murali, Jayasuriya, and Sangakkara all would though.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
And the other thing is in tests you can get away by bowling crap. In ODIs if you bowl crap, you lose. Vaas hardly ever bowled crap.
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
subshakerz said:
Shouldnt that go to his credit for being a gun death over bowler, blasting out tails?

I still find it hard to take how Vaas could be a better ODI bowler. Their ER difference is only 0.5 Not only do they have a huge gulf in averages and SRs, but Vaas also feasted on a lot more minnows and only did excellent against NZ and WI, while Waqar had quality returns against India, SL, SA, England, NZ and borderline WI and has matchwinning fifers against every major country. Waqar is arguably the most destructive ODI bowler in cricket history.

If you remove minnows, Vaas likely averages over 30 while Waqar's record is the same. No way is Vaas a better ODI bowler.
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I'm not commenting on who I think is better, just explaining how the ICC rankings work in regards to them.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Why would you have Starc ahead of Vaas if ER matters so much?
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Starc's ER is OK compared to the era he bowls. You have to adjust ODI stats, not like in tests. Even then I will wait till his career ends to pass a judgement.

ICC ranking wise there is nothing much between the two. So I'll wait till he retires.

1666512643233.png

And for the record, Vaas vs Boult

1666512703907.png

80 matches over 600 vs 250. Still haven't hit a peak like Vaas.

If you don't accept ICC ranking system, then I am fine by it. But what it shows is the consistency of Vaas over a very long time.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
And finally for the comparison Waqar vs Pollock.

Pollock has a higher average, but he has ATG ER. And in ICC rankings he is light years ahead of Waqar. This is how ER works in ODI matches.

1666512977592.png
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
Migara said:
Starc's ER is OK compared to the era he bowls. You have to adjust ODI stats, not like in tests. Even then I will wait till his career ends to pass a judgement.

ICC ranking wise there is nothing much between the two. So I'll wait till he retires.

View attachment 33275

And for the record, Vaas vs Boult

View attachment 33276

80 matches over 600 vs 250. Still haven't hit a peak like Vaas.

If you don't accept ICC ranking system, then I am fine by it. But what it shows is the consistency of Vaas over a very long time.
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I think the ranking system dings players a % for missed games. Bowlers get rested a lot in JAMODIs in the last few years. You can't really use ICC rankings anymore... rating is too dependent on how many formats they play.
 
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