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The Fine Line: Would You Walk?

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
benchmark00 said:
I'd cut off my leg before I walk.
Hear hear.

I never walked, and I didn't expect it of others. You could guarantee one thing though - I'd expect a throat ball next up if I'd got away with one, and I'd certainly be dishing one out if boot were on t'other foot.
 

Autobahn

State 12th Man
luckyeddie said:
Hear hear.

I never walked, and I didn't expect it of others. You could guarantee one thing though - I'd expect a throat ball next up if I'd got away with one, and I'd certainly be dishing one out if boot were on t'other foot.
Maybe even one aimed at your noggin if it was really close :laugh:
 

C_C

International Captain
Pedro Delgado said:
I don't know about the others but I am not taking any moral high ground, as I said I have no problem with non-walkers and do not see myself better than them. Just that for me personally I try to apply honesty, honour and the gentlemanly code in everything (I'm by no means perfect, swear like billio) and I see no reason why cricket should be exempt. Thinking oneself better than someone who mearly awaits a decision is tantamount to snobbery, which in itself is detestable IMO. As for the team ethic well, they can go and find another batsman if they have a problem with it.

I haven't played a lot of cricket to be fair, and the stakes haven't been particularly high, but I reckon it's about 50-50 between the walker and the waiter in my experience.
Its not a question of being better or inferior. its simply a question of scrupules and putting the cart before the horse.
People who care only about winning miss the entire fundamental point - its not the goal that matters, its the journey. Winning an unfair contest is almost utterly irrelevant as far as i am concerned. Call me richard-esque, but 'means to an end' philosophy is utterly devoid morally. Therefore, anyone who stands his ground knowing that he/she is out, is a cheat. Period.
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
As I mentioned in another thread, it's only fair that the spirit of the game be played in the same manner by both teams. If both teams have an accord and intend on walking, then fine. Since teams don't do that... there's no sense in giving the opposition the advantage.

It should be no secret to people here than cricket is a big boys game. If I smell fear on a batsman, I aim for his ribs. So do all professionals. It's played with aggression and a strong desire to win... anybody thinking it's played, or should be played, in another manner doesn't understand how intense cricket should be played.

I like the Ian Chappell theroy of "a weakness in character is the same as a weakness in technique." And I think if you look throughout the history of sport, character wins games more than skill does. So lets keep it a game of character.
 

adharcric

International Coach
C_C said:
Its not a question of being better or inferior. its simply a question of scrupules and putting the cart before the horse.
People who care only about winning miss the entire fundamental point - its not the goal that matters, its the journey. Winning an unfair contest is almost utterly irrelevant as far as i am concerned. Call me richard-esque, but 'means to an end' philosophy is utterly devoid morally. Therefore, anyone who stands his ground knowing that he/she is out, is a cheat. Period.
Then isn't anyone who leaves his ground even when he knows he's not out a cheat as well? He has to abide by the ruling of the umpire, one might say. Well, why not in this case then? That also seems to imply that the rules of cricket support cheating. If we want to fix this issue for good, we would have to practically eliminate the importance of umpires and everything would be referred. That would eliminate bad decisions, but also make the game rather messed up.

Honestly, walking when you know you're out is a good gesture but both teams should agree to do so ... not sure how that would happen though. If you say that sport is a contest of honesty, well then the honest ones here would actually be losing on the playing field.
 
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C_C

International Captain
Then isn't anyone who leaves his ground even when he knows he's not out a cheat as well? He has to abide by the ruling of the umpire, one might say. Well, why not in this case then? That also seems to imply that the rules of cricket support cheating. If we want to fix this issue for good, we would have to practically eliminate the importance of umpires and everything would be referred. That would eliminate bad decisions, but also make the game rather messed up.
Again, that is a 'end to the means' justification. A person has a personal responsibility to be honest. Honesty and integrity is a quality of the self. Not dependent on how well others are doing their jobs.
If the umpire makes a mistake, the fault is his. But it doesnt absolve you of your responsibility to have integrity and honesty in a venture.
 

C_C

International Captain
Francis said:
As I mentioned in another thread, it's only fair that the spirit of the game be played in the same manner by both teams. If both teams have an accord and intend on walking, then fine. Since teams don't do that... there's no sense in giving the opposition the advantage.

It should be no secret to people here than cricket is a big boys game. If I smell fear on a batsman, I aim for his ribs. So do all professionals. It's played with aggression and a strong desire to win... anybody thinking it's played, or should be played, in another manner doesn't understand how intense cricket should be played.

I like the Ian Chappell theroy of "a weakness in character is the same as a weakness in technique." And I think if you look throughout the history of sport, character wins games more than skill does. So lets keep it a game of character.
Okay. Next time since weakness in character is a weakness in technique, lets define what character is.
The ability to take abuse ?
Lets pull a Paulo Escobar then and threaten to kill players if they dont perform. That should really seperate the chaff from the grains.
The 'big boys game' is an argument that is used often to backup underhanded tactics, nefarious conduct and a totally unscrupulous intent.
 

adharcric

International Coach
C_C said:
Again, that is a 'end to the means' justification. A person has a personal responsibility to be honest. Honesty and integrity is a quality of the self. Not dependent on how well others are doing their jobs.
If the umpire makes a mistake, the fault is his. But it doesnt absolve you of your responsibility to have integrity and honesty in a venture.
Fair point. I just wish that everyone would follow the same path so the ones with honesty and integrity don't end up losing out on the playing field.

I'm still trying to figure out what I'll do when confronted with this situation. Hasn't happened yet ... I manage to get out in very obvious ways usually.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
luckyeddie said:
Hear hear.

I never walked, and I didn't expect it of others.
And umpires tend to prefer it that way. Though they shouldn't be ifluenced by the reputation of a player as a walker or otherwise, they are after all human, and such things do enter the mind in the decision-making process.

Umpires have a job to do. If the batsman walks and the umpire says not out, he's not out, because it doesn't matter if the batsman hit it. If the umpire didn't see or hear the batsman hit it, he's supposed to signal not out. That's the nature of the sport.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Richard said:
But no-one EVER waits for his decision when they nick it to third-slip.
Yes they do...what if you hit it just as it was hitting the ground and aren't sure whether it bounced or not...or are you going to tell me that NEVER happens? You won't find the stats for it in cricinfo but I'll be betting it has happened sometime between the late 1800's and now.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
C_C said:
Okay. Next time since weakness in character is a weakness in technique, lets define what character is.
The ability to take abuse ?
Lets pull a Paulo Escobar then and threaten to kill players if they dont perform. That should really seperate the chaff from the grains.
The 'big boys game' is an argument that is used often to backup underhanded tactics, nefarious conduct and a totally unscrupulous intent.
Andrés Escobar, I assume you mean.

& even by your standards of hyperbole you've excelled yourself there.
 

C_C

International Captain
BoyBrumby said:
Andrés Escobar, I assume you mean.

& even by your standards of hyperbole you've excelled yourself there.
Aye.. Andres Escobar. ( dunno why i keep remembering it as Paulo). As per hyperbole- perhaps it was, but it was to demonstrate what a slippery slope it is for disreputable behaviour.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Francis said:
It should be no secret to people here than cricket is a big boys game. If I smell fear on a batsman, I aim for his ribs.
I aim for the base of his stumps. And to get it to bend in the air.
Because that's what gets me wickets.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Son Of Coco said:
Yes they do...what if you hit it just as it was hitting the ground and aren't sure whether it bounced or not...or are you going to tell me that NEVER happens? You won't find the stats for it in cricinfo but I'll be betting it has happened sometime between the late 1800's and now.
I'm talking about if it's obvious it's carried.
And that itself should be fairly obvious.
 

33/3from3.3

International Vice-Captain
I dont think i've ever walked but ive stayed when i was given out LBW after a rather loud nick into my padsthe only person who appealled was the bowler everyone else laughed then the ump raised his finger
and i looked at him like 'what the hell have you been smoking'
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
Okay. Next time since weakness in character is a weakness in technique, lets define what character is.
The ability to take abuse ?
Yep, verbally abusing somebody is a means to test character. It's easy to distinguish the good natured ribbing to the mean spirited ribbing. Like Warne calling Graeme Smith "the young one" or Tony Grieg saying to David Hookes "he's just another left hander who can't bat." It's little annoying things that test your concentration. Not

Lets pull a Paulo Escobar then and threaten to kill players if they dont perform. That should really seperate the chaff from the grains.
The 'big boys game' is an argument that is used often to backup underhanded tactics, nefarious conduct and a totally unscrupulous intent.
Do you think maybe your overreacting. The stuff players say are small jabs compared to what they get from the press and public. Little jabs that test them. Saying things like "threatening to kills players" is just overacting.
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
Also many players say it never puts them off and you'd hope so, especially consider what some of the crowds throw at them which isn't acceptable. If you can't handle those small jabs, you can't handle any other pressure around you. Simple as that.
 

C_C

International Captain
Yep, verbally abusing somebody is a means to test character. It's easy to distinguish the good natured ribbing to the mean spirited ribbing. Like Warne calling Graeme Smith "the young one" or Tony Grieg saying to David Hookes "he's just another left hander who can't bat." It's little annoying things that test your concentration. Not
Verbally abusing someone shows the attacker's lack of upbringing and civility. Besides, just who deciedes what is acceptable verbal abuse ? To some, making snide comments about their wives/mothers/children is far bigger offence than threatening to shove an AK-47 up their poopchute.
And sledging today isnt little annoying things - atleast, not from the Aussies. Its profanity laced personal attack which would earn each and every one of them a black eye in almost anywhere else. Regardless, the point remains - if you resort to sledging, it shows your cricketing skills are not adequate. willful and open antagonism should be curtailed and if chappelli thinks sledging is an acceptable means of testing somene's mental strength, then i am gonna advocate for a Andres Escobar-esque situation to test someone's mental strength even furthre - perform or die. Please tell me where you draw the line.

Do you think maybe your overreacting. The stuff players say are small jabs compared to what they get from the press and public. Little jabs that test them. Saying things like "threatening to kills players" is just overacting.
Commenting about mothers, family, nationality, etc. is definately not little jabs. And that is the bulk of the sledging today.
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
Damn! I just wrote a large post and accidently deleted it... here I go again.

Verbally abusing someone shows the attacker's lack of upbringing and civility.[/quot]

That's very judgmental and I think this may have to do with different cultures. In England, Australia, NZ... swearing is a very liberal thing. You hear words like m*th*rf*ck*r a lot and they're not intented to insult, they're just very common liberal words. People in Yorkshire, in my experience, can't go ten seconds without swearing. Now I don't swear myself, but I'm never offended by it because it's part of my culture and I'm used to it. So if Andrew Symonds says "lets get these m*th*rf*ck*rs out." I'm not offended. In a country where swearing isn't common, it might offend some.

Besides, just who deciedes what is acceptable verbal abuse ? To some, making snide comments about their wives/mothers/children is far bigger offence than threatening to shove an AK-47 up their poopchute.
Find more than two scenarios where wives or children were involved. I can think of one with Glenn McGrath. Many others have been reported and found to be false. In fact there was a mtyh-buster thread on false slanders here at CW a few weeks ago where many supposed sledges never actually occured. And I want sources that talk about wives/children etc, not just mtyhs or "oh it just happens."

And sledging today isnt little annoying things - atleast, not from the Aussies. Its profanity laced personal attack which would earn each and every one of them a black eye in almost anywhere else.
Yeah there's plenty of profanity, which is quite common in England, Oz and NZ. Personal attack? Give me some credible examples. The most personal I know of was Shane Warne having a go at Gary Kirstin for hitting on some critickers wives. And to be honest, they were actually quite funny.

Comments about mothers may be common and jabs about your mothers are quite common in my culture and are said in good humour. For example, "yo mammas so fat" jokes etc. Nobody takes them personally.

Regardless, the point remains - if you resort to sledging, it shows your cricketing skills are not adequate.
You can sledge all you like, but it's only skill that's gonna win you a game.

willful and open antagonism should be curtailed and if chappelli thinks sledging is an acceptable means of testing somene's mental strength, then i am gonna advocate for a Andres Escobar-esque situation to test someone's mental strength even furthre - perform or die. Please tell me where you draw the line.
I draw the line when issues such a race are involved. To this day I've never heard racism as a sledge. Guys like Darren Lehman who have said racist comments didn't use them as sledges. I draw the line when sledges lead to tempers boiling over, and this has happened with Glenn McGrath. To his credit, an umpire stepped in and told McGrath to calm down. Understand that most sledges are just comments that come in inbetween shots and if they put you off, seriously there's something wrong. If you can't handle a sledge, you can't handle anything else. And you know what? I have never heard a cricketer say he went out because a sledge annoyed him. What does that say about him if he does?

Oh I went out because a cricketer said I was another left hander who couldn't bat! How would this cricketer handle public criticisms of his batting then? It's a tes of character, but all professional crickets have character. Most aren't afriad to get hit with a ball. Cricket's a big boys game where you can get hit, you dive, you take on heat from bowlers.

My definition of a comment that is unacceptable is something that goes beyond other pressures of the game. Most sledges, though insulting, don't exceed the difficulty or pressure they'll be under from the cricketers tactics. If they were talking in the middle of a shot that's another thing, they're going beyond the pressure batsman are already under.

But if you can't handle a little jab, you can't handle anything else.

Commenting about mothers, family, nationality, etc. is definately not little jabs. And that is the bulk of the sledging today.
And batsmen go out because of them? Didn't anybody tell you about sticks and stones when you were a kid? If these things put you off then what are you doing facing a 150 mile ball from Brett Lee.

Do you honestly believe that with all the difficulty one has in batting that sledging is their biggest problem. It's the least of their problems. And I have never heard one cricket say he went out to a sledge, or he couldn't bat because of a sledge. It's such a small part of the bigger picture. When your batting, you don't worry about anything else.

A better argument for you would be to say that sledging is pointless, which I somewhat agree with, because it doesn't put batters off. Tony Grieg said it never put him off and he got the worst of it. Warne was at his worst to Andrew Strauss, yet he made centuries.

Their just comments and at worst, stick and stones brother. Their such a small part of the bigger picture of the pressure of cricket. I'd rather have somebody make a little taunt toward me than face a Brett Lee delivery. And if both were happening, there's only one I'd be thinking of.
 

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