The Better Player: Ravi Ashwin vs. Shaun Pollock

[sunilz]

Saqlain was excellent in 1999 playing away from home. 2004 he was injured, out of sorts and promptly retired.

Just to compare, the best spinner Kohli's side has faced is Lyon in 2017 and he put the batting under real pressure. So I am inclined to think Saqlain and Swann would do well.

Yes Saqlain and Swann would do well and average around 25. But Ashwin/Jadeja would average around 20.

 

[trundler]

Pollock is the only bowler in history to average sub 20 after 50 tests. Great, great bowler who once again gets marked down for continuing to be serviceable in a different capacity past the point where others usually retire. Stupid.

 

[honestbharani]

I see Statsgurushakerz decides to roll out the fingernail excuse for Saqlain.

 

[srbhkshk]

The Kohli side hasn't faced anything near that level of quality at home. So I'm not convinced that they are this unbeatable team they are hyped up to be.

They aren't hyped up to be unbeatable ffs, it's literally that the team last lost a home series in 2012 and that was a different team. They literally are unbeaten at home.

Of course you can conjure up magical teams of yore who would destroy everything in their path, well too bad they will never get their chance of getting bowled out for sub 100 totals by the counter-magic of Axar Patel.

 

[subshakerz]

And the GOAT Aussie side got ****ed over by a mediocre player in Harbhajan and our batsman being the second best bowler.

In Indian conditions they Australia side have never faced anything close to a triple attack of Ashwin/Jadeja/Axar.

Dont forget the massive key difference too - previously our spinners were good but our pace bowlers would still be slightly worse, at best, than opposition pace bowlers and at worst, much, much worse.

Now ours are as good/quite a fair bit better. It’s relentless pressure.

I am talking about current Indias batting. No doubt their bowling is better than their 2000s counterparts. But their batting to me is a level below.

 

[subshakerz]

They aren't hyped up to be unbeatable ffs, it's literally that the team last lost a home series in 2012 and that was a different team. They literally are unbeaten at home.

Of course you can conjure up magical teams of yore who would destroy everything in their path, well too bad they will never get their chance of getting bowled out for sub 100 totals by the counter-magic of Axar Patel.

This thread diversion started because someone posted that Kohli's team cannot be beaten by any in history at home.

 

[sunilz]

I see Statsgurushakerz decides to roll out the fingernail excuse for Saqlain.

Nah. Saqlain was class. No doubt .
I feel subshakerz hasn't watched BG trophy closely. Just like Pak players in 90s used to raise their game against IND , IND team raises its game against AUS.

 

[Slifer]

India's batting in the late 90s/2000s at home faced McGrath, Warne, Pollock, Donald, Steyn, Murali, Shoaib, Wasim, Saqlain, Swann and others.

The Kohli side hasn't faced anything near that level of quality at home. So I'm not convinced that they are this unbeatable team they are hyped up to be.

And none of those teams faced an Indian attack nearly as potent as the current side. Especially, at home. Seriously, India has lost what two home tests in 10 years, that's fking unbelievable. This Indian team AT Home has a batting lineup that is a ever so slight down grade from the Tendulkar years, slight because you have the likes of Jadeja, Pant and Ashwin coming down the order. But the Indian bowling now >>> anything from that era. For the love of GOD India's 3rd string attack bowled them to victory in Australia (two times in a row). And teams like England, NZ, Australia, RSA ,have been bringing their first choice attacks here. None of which were particularly weak. They just taken care of by India's batting (at home).

 

[sunilz]

This thread diversion started because someone posted that Kohli's team cannot be beaten by any in history at home.

Because winning a test is not the same as winning the series.
Both IND and PAK won test matches against WI of 80-94 but it is Aus that gets the credit of winning the series.

 

[subshakerz]

Pollock is the only bowler in history to average sub 20 after 50 tests. Great, great bowler who once again gets marked down for continuing to be serviceable in a different capacity past the point where others usually retire. Stupid.

That's incredible. And at that point he had class performances in Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Australia, England.

I guess in that era when world class pacers were the norm, it was harder to hype someone like Pollock.

 

[sunilz]

Rabada, Philander, Anderson , Hazzlewood , Southee , Jamieson ( future Great) all are very good pace bowlers who have been dealt comfortably.

 

[Slifer]

This thread diversion started because someone posted that Kohli's team cannot be beaten by any in history at home.

I said it. Ok let me correct my self. It's unlikely that any team in history (outside of maybe atg XIs) would beat this team at home. I dont see what the big deal is. It's unlikely any team would beat Oz '95 to '07 or the WI of the 80s at their respective homes either. And India's home record has been just as dominant (more so). As a matter of fact, given their recent away record, India can probably call themselves a great team or just a smidgen below that level. They've beaten Oz twice away, England away (yeah I know controversial), lost badly in Nz, and we'll see what happens in RSA.

 

[Slifer]

Rabada, Philander, Anderson , Hazzlewood , Southee , Jamieson ( future Great) all are very good pace bowlers who have been dealt comfortably.

And Starc, Wagner, Boult, etc aren't particularly bad either.

 

[subshakerz]

And none of those teams faced an Indian attack nearly as potent as the current side. Especially, at home. Seriously, India has lost what two home tests in 10 years, that's fking unbelievable. This Indian team AT Home has a batting lineup that is a ever so slight down grade from the Tendulkar years, slight because you have the likes of Jadeja, Pant and Ashwin coming down the order. But the Indian bowling now >>> anything from that era. For the love of GOD India's 3rd string attack bowled them to victory in Australia (two times in a row). And teams like England, NZ, Australia, RSA ,have been bringing their first choice attacks here. None of which were particularly weak. They just taken care of by India's batting (at home).

Thats where we disagree. I see this batting lineup as nowhere as good as that 2000s version. You can't compensate weaknesses in your main batting order with a deeper lower order.

Definitely in swinging conditions, but also not as class against spin.

Still, because of the Ashwin-Jedeja combo, they will beat the vast majority of teams at home. But I think teams with great bowling attacks can seriously test this side.

 

[Dendarii]

I honestly feel bad for Pollock coz even apart from all his cricketing talents and achievements, he always gets big points for handling probably the toughest period a captain can handle for a sports side. Taking over after a beloved leader was found to be a match fixer and fixing up the side to a level that they kept being in the top 3 all the time is no mean feat as a captain esp. as a bowling captain.

And his own performance certainly didn't suffer as captain as he averaged 21.36 with the ball and 41.58 with the bat.

 

[subshakerz]

Rabada, Philander, Anderson , Hazzlewood , Southee , Jamieson ( future Great) all are very good pace bowlers who have been dealt comfortably.

They are nowhere near as good as those mentioned in these conditions. Especially the lack of world class spinners is important.

 

[sunilz]

Thats where we disagree. I see this batting lineup as nowhere as good as that 2000s version. You can't compensate weaknesses in your main batting order with a deeper lower order.

Definitely in swinging conditions, but also not as class against spin.

Still, because of the Ashwin-Jedeja combo, they will beat the vast majority of teams at home. But I think teams with great bowling attacks can seriously test this side.

Isn't your last line valid about every great Team.
Didn't AUS of 90s struggle against Ambrose + Walsh ? I believe no team is invincible. With a bit of luck and proper ATG attack any side can be beaten.

 

[Nikhil99.94]

I said it. Ok let me correct my self. It's unlikely that any team in history (outside of maybe atg XIs) would beat this team at home. I dont see what the big deal is. It's unlikely any team would beat Oz '95 to '07 or the WI of the 80s at their respective homes either. And India's home record has been just as dominant (more so). As a matter of fact, given their recent away record, India can probably call themselves a great team or just a smidgen below that level. They've beaten Oz twice away, England away (yeah I know controversial), lost badly in Nz, and we'll see what happens in RSA.

The invincibles 1948 would most likely beat all teams you mentioned at their respective home.
Morris
Barnes
Bradman(c)
Hassett
Harvey
Brown/loxton
Miller
Lindwall
Tallon(wk)
Ian Johnston/mccool
Bill Johnston

 

[Slifer]

Thats where we disagree. I see this batting lineup as nowhere as good as that 2000s version. You can't compensate weaknesses in your main batting order with a deeper lower order.

Definitely in swinging conditions, but also not as class against spin.

Still, because of the Ashwin-Jedeja combo, they will beat the vast majority of teams at home. But I think teams with great bowling attacks can seriously test this side.

Overall you are right. But were specifically talking about at home ie in India. And in India the current batting lineup is excellent in India.

 

[sunilz]

They are nowhere near as good as those mentioned in these conditions. Especially the lack of world class spinners is important.

Herath and Lyon are as good as Saqlain and Swann . However no one is Warne/Murali level because they were the greatest spin bowlers ever.