The better batsman the bettter #3 Ponting vs Dravid

[C_C]

He only really had one bad series there, and that was in the embryonic stage of his career, and on his first tour to the subcontinent. I just think Ponting has more gears to his game than Dravid, and can make an impact whether he comes in at 1 for 200 or 1 for 2. That said, Dravid is a magnificent player.

Correction- two utterly horrible series in IND and two other matches where he's bombed out big. Ponting is a better strokeplayer than Dravid, but then again, Saleem Malik's strokeplay put Steve Waugh to shame.

 

[Sanz]

I would say Dravid is superior to Kallis, simply because his record against McGrath + Warne + Wasim + Waqar + Murali + Donald + Pollock is superior to Kallis's. Add in Dravid's superb average away from home and i think he has a genuine case for being considered the third best batsman of his era after Tendulkar and Lara. Ponting has a glaring weakness when it comes to playing spin bowling on spin-friendly tracks- something Dravid doesnt have. As long as Ponting doesnt rectify that, it is hard to consider him a true alltime-great batsman in the same patch as Tendulkar/Lara/Dravid. Dravid also is significantly superior away from home, which is a big thing in batsmanship, considering that most batsmen struggle away from home.

The only country where Dravid has a better away performance is England, everywhere else Ponting is superior.
Ponting averages better against the likes of Donald + Waqar + Akhtar + Saqlain + Wasim + Murali + Pollock.
Dravid's avg. against Mcgrath + warne = 30ish.

 

[C_C]

The only country where Dravid has a better away performance is England, everywhere else Ponting is superior.
Ponting averages better against the likes of Donald + Waqar + Akhtar + Saqlain + Wasim + Murali + Pollock.
Dravid's avg. against Mcgrath + warne = 30ish.

Yes but Ponting's average against those abovementioned bowlers is marginally superior to Dravid's and its primarily because Punter is a slightly better player of pace than Dravid. However, Ponting's playing of spin is unconvincing at best and lamentable at worst. An alltime great batsman cannot have such an obvious chink in their armour ( spinners on spin-friendly tracks). The two prime counts where Dravid scores over Ponting, significantly so, is his playing of spin and average overseas. Rest all are touch-n-go between them, with one or the other comming out ahead in various other categories.

If i were to rate batsmen post 1990, my rating would be :

1. Tendulkar
2. Lara
3. Steve Waugh
4. Dravid
5. Ponting
6. Gillchrist
7. Kallis
8. Inzamam
9. Martyn
10. ????

 

[Sanz]

And in 2000s(since ponting/Dravid didn't play for most of the 90s) I would rather have :-

1. Ponting/Dravid 2. Lara 3. Laxman 4. SRT 5. Sehwag 6. Gilchrist 7. Inzamam 8. Hayden 9. Martyn 10. Langer

 

[Tomm NCCC]

I know that theya re both top quality batsmen,m but once again I can only judge by what I've seen of them, so I'm going to have to say Ricky Ponting

 

[marc71178]

Please- i have certain stats that are relevant.

I have a random number generator, shall I use that?

 

[Tom Halsey]

I have a random number generator, shall I use that?

The fact is Ponting, of late, beats Dravid, both by watching him (which most people do), and stats (which some people look at). I'm yet to see a stat which doesn't favour Ponting over the last couple of years.

 

[marc71178]

Lost matches as captain versus England?

 

[Tom Halsey]

Well in fairness to Dravid on that one he hasn't captained India against England yet, so he hasn't had a chance to lose that one. As soon as he captains India in England he might lose that too.

 

[C_C]

I have a random number generator, shall I use that?

As long as you can back it up logically and use it consistently, be my guest!

 

[C_C]

The fact is Ponting, of late, beats Dravid, both by watching him (which most people do), and stats (which some people look at). I'm yet to see a stat which doesn't favour Ponting over the last couple of years.

And of late, even Salman Butt beats Tendulkar. Of late is only one thing- form. Form is temporary, class is permanent. And Ponting has some ways to go before he can match Dravid- a great player doesnt have an obvious and such a glaring weakness as Punter ( playing spin on spin-friendly tracks). And don't bother quoting one good series he's had vs SL- his overall record against spin on spinning wickets is pathetic.

 

[Tom Halsey]

And of late, even Salman Butt beats Tendulkar. Of late is only one thing- form. Form is temporary, class is permanent.

I'm talking last two years, not last two months on which Butt probably beats Tendulkar.

Last two years is IMO a good way of deducing a player's value now, and as the thread is about who you'd want at number three at the moment, I'd go Ponting.

Ponting averages nearly 40 in Asia, that's not pathetic. And I believe he averages over 40 there in ODIs (though this isn't relevent to Test cricket, it does show he can bat on spin friendly wickets). Ponting also averages 70 at Sydney in 11 Matches, which further proves my point.

 

[Sanz]

And don't bother quoting one good series he's had vs SL- his overall record against spin on spinning wickets is pathetic.

Both Dravid and Ponting have played equal no. of Tests in SL, here is their performance record in SL :-

Dravid - 6 Tests, 10 Innings, 1 Not Out, 419 runs @ 46.55 with 1 100 and 3 50s
Ponting - 6 Tests, 10 Innings, 1 Not Out, 451 runs @ 50.11 with 1 100 and 3 50s

Dravid's high scores :- 107, 75, 69
Ponting's high scores :- 105*, 96, 92

It must be noted that Dravid's highest score came in a match where Murali was not in the SL team.

Also it is no secret that Dravid has struggled against quality spin, He struggled against Saqlain in Pak's 99 tour of India, he has always struggled against Warnie and Murali.

 

[Pratters]

Also it is no secret that Dravid has struggled against quality spin, He struggled against Saqlain in Pak's 99 tour of India, he has always struggled against Warnie and Murali.

How did Dravid manage this inning then.

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2000-01/AUS_IN_IND/SCORECARDS/AUS_IND_T2_11-15MAR2001.html

 

[C_C]

I'm talking last two years, not last two months on which Butt probably beats Tendulkar.

Last two years is IMO a good way of deducing a player's value now, and as the thread is about who you'd want at number three at the moment, I'd go Ponting.

Ponting averages nearly 40 in Asia, that's not pathetic. And I believe he averages over 40 there in ODIs (though this isn't relevent to Test cricket, it does show he can bat on spin friendly wickets). Ponting also averages 70 at Sydney in 11 Matches, which further proves my point.

No, last two years is irrelevant to the whole careers. There were 2 years in the 80s when Vengsarkar was better performing than Viv you know. I dont care how 'now' is- its how the overall is what i concern myself with- that is the bigger picture.

Ponting barely averages 30 in IND/PAK/SL. That is quite pathetic. Maybe if he had played much quality spin on Sydney, it would've made a better read of his abilities in Sydney.

 

[Pratters]

Ponting barely averages 30 in IND/PAK/SL. That is quite pathetic. Maybe if he had played much quality spin on Sydney, it would've made a better read of his abilities in Sydney.

Actually he averages 38.7 http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?...edhigh=;csearch=;submit=1;.cgifields=viewtype

Also the following show he can play quality spin -

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2002-03/AUS_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/AUS_PAK_T1_03-07OCT2002.html

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2002-03/AUS_IN_PAK/SCORECARDS/AUS_PAK_T3_19-23OCT2002.html

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/AUS_IN_SL/SCORECARDS/AUS_SL_T3_24-28MAR2004.html

He has other good scores like 96, 76*, 92 etc as well.

 

[Pratters]

In the 99/00 away series, he faced both, and averaged 15 with a top score of 35.

In the 2001 home series, he faced both, and averaged 56.33 with a top score of 180.

In the 04/05 home series, he faced both, and averaged 27.83 with a top score of 60.

And in the Super Series a few months ago, he faced both and averaged 11.5 with a duck and a score of 23.

All up - 11 tests, 21 innings, 1 NO, 767 runs @ 38.35, 2x50, 1x100

A solid effort, but certainly not spectacular, especially when you remove that one big score.

...

Even including the 180, this makes his average against Warne/McGrath quite similar to the one possessed by a "minnow-basher" by the name of Jacques Kallis... and his overall average against Australia is obviously inflated by "cashing in" when Australias top bowlers were missing.

Taking into account the first series of Dravid in Australia where he did struggle, Dravid has a pretty decent record facing a good Australian attack.

I wouldnt even think of calling Dravid a minnow basher or even mention him in the same sentence in which minnow basher is mentioned.

 

[Sanz]

How did Dravid manage this inning then.

http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2000-01/AUS_IN_IND/SCORECARDS/AUS_IND_T2_11-15MAR2001.html

One Swallow doesn't make a summer..

 

[Pratters]

One Swallow doesn't make a summer..

You stated

he has always struggled against Warnie and Murali.

Actually he hasnt always by that inning. I just brought out an example. Others could have been produced but arent needed.

 

[chooka_nick]

Wow this is a great debate! After reading the whole four pages I have my money on Ponting, but I really like Dravid as a player as well.
Here's a soloution: Bat Ponting at three and Dravid at four!
Actually, for another spanner into the works, is Ponting really Australia's best number three since Bradman?