The better batsman the bettter #3 Ponting vs Dravid

[C_C]

But it is hardly Ponting's fault that India or other teams have a crap bowling attacks, so unless he burns his Australian passport and goes and plays for another country he can't really do that.

Not all of it is his fault. But what you are is part your effort, part circumstantial. Its like saying its not Hobb's fault that he never had to face pacers of the quality of McGrath or Marshall, Holding, etc. therefore he is as good as Gavaskar. True, but the point that Hobbs didnt play against good quality opposition,therefore his record is more inflated than other's is still valid. Same with Ponting.

 

[Boofra]

But it is hardly Ponting's fault that India or other teams have a crap bowling attacks, so unless he burns his Australian passport and goes and plays for another country he can't really do that.

I dont think the issue is that Punter has never had to play against his own attack. Just that against other great attacks he still hasnt faired so well.

Hhe had a great 2005, but averaged 39 vs England - by far the best attack with the reverse swing and all. He also has a solid at best record vs the Windies <1999. The other main challenges he has faced in his career are in India where he's been woeful and in Sri Lanka where has hasnt got the better than Murali.

Dravid on the other hand has an awesome record in England and also in Australia. Im not sure about his record against Sri lanka.

 

[Craig]

Well right now, even Salman Butt has his nose in front of Tendulkar- i dont care about form, i care about overall career accomplishments. Until Punter learns how to play spin on spinning tracks, he is no match for Dravid.

Like in Sri Lanka?

 

[C_C]

Like in Sri Lanka?

He's had one good series in SL and one ****-poor one.
He's visited IND 4 times, playing a full series twice ( 3 match series) and 1 time each the other two times.
His highest series ave. in IND is 21.00, with his 'glorious' record in IND standing at 8 matches, 14 innings, 0 not outs, 172 runs @ 12.28, with 1 solitary 50.
He has also played only one match in Pakistan, doing rather well.
Overall, he is a huge question-mark in Asia and a huge disappointment in spin-friendly tracks.
Dravid, Tendulkar, Lara and Steve Waugh didnt have/don't have such a glaring weakness and as such, Ponting cannot be classed along those alltime great batsmen.

 

[Josh]

Dravid is a great defensive batsman. He can destroy the opposition through his sheer resilliance.

Ponting is a great all-round batsman. He doesn't destroy through resilliance but through sheer brute force and his ability so score runs so freely and easily. Problem is most teams still haven't figured out how good he is against short-pitched bowling, particularly when it's on the stumps, and they somewhat allow him to dominate.

Anyway my vote is with Ponting.

 

[open365]

Personaly i think it's pointless to compare 2 of the best players in the world like this.

They are both great players,let's leave it at that. You could search forever through their stats but in the end they will tell you nothing.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Just to add to the debate:

Ponting just brought up his 8000th test run in his 165th inning. Dravid brought it up in 158 knocks. Splitting hairs, really.

I suppose who you consider better depends on the situation. If the score is 3-30 on a tough pitch or in spinning conditions then you'd take Dravid. If you had to save a match you'd probably take Dravid (inspite of Punter's 157 at Old Trafford). But Ponting certainly does have it over Dravid in terms of S/R. So if you were entering a match you had to win he's the man.

It also depends on team requirements. For example, with the likes of Sehwag, Sachin, VVS and now Dhoni in the Indian team, i would argue that Dravid is the perfect foil. But for Australia, playing at home on hard pitches you could aruge that Ponting is the best man as he's an attacking number 3 suited to the conditions.

Meh, they're both great.

Saves me a post

 

[open365]

Saves me a post

Am i the only one to spot a slight flaw here?

 

[Neil Pickup]

Am i the only one to spot a slight flaw here?

Saves me thinking and wording a post.

 

[Sanz]

Not just Ponting. Also Hayden, Lara, Dravid, Kallis, etc. Its not surprising, given that there arnt any bowling attacks the quality of several bowling attacks in the 90s, barring OZ.

And just what is Dravid's avg. against the quality Aussie attack ?

 

[Prince EWS]

Better batsman: Ponting
Better #3: Dravid

I still maintain Ponting would be better suited at #4.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

And just what is Dravid's avg. against the quality Aussie attack ?

Indeed. Dravid has made only three scores in excess of 50 against Warne/McGrath... one was the 180, the others are an 81 in the same series and 60 in the first test in 2004.

In the one-off test in 96/97, Dravid didn't face Warne, and averaged 40.

In the 97/98 home series, he didn't face McGrath, and averaged 44.60.

In the 99/00 away series, he faced both, and averaged 15 with a top score of 35.

In the 2001 home series, he faced both, and averaged 56.33 with a top score of 180.

In the 03/04 away series, he didn't face either, and averaged 123.80 with a top score of 233.

In the 04/05 home series, he faced both, and averaged 27.83 with a top score of 60.

And in the Super Series a few months ago, he faced both and averaged 11.5 with a duck and a score of 23.

All up - 11 tests, 21 innings, 1 NO, 767 runs @ 38.35, 2x50, 1x100

A solid effort, but certainly not spectacular, especially when you remove that one big score.

Mind you, I'm not attempting to belittle Dravid, who I consider an utterly superb player, but his record against McGrath/Warne is pretty patchy. Warne worked him out fairly well in the 99/00 home series... in fact he was the only Indian batsman Warne really got on top of that series, and Warne wasn't bowling very well. Then in 2004, Dravid really struggled against the accuracy of McGrath with support from a very in-form Gillespie, and got tied down. He survived quite well, but he simply played himself and his team into a hole over and over and then got out without going on with it.

Even including the 180, this makes his average against Warne/McGrath quite similar to the one possessed by a "minnow-basher" by the name of Jacques Kallis... and his overall average against Australia is obviously inflated by "cashing in" when Australias top bowlers were missing.

 

[SJS]

Indeed. Dravid has made only three scores in excess of 50 against Warne/McGrath... one was the 180, the others are an 81 in the same series and 60 in the first test in 2004.

In the one-off test in 96/97, Dravid didn't face Warne, and averaged 40.

In the 97/98 home series, he didn't face McGrath, and averaged 44.60.

In the 99/00 away series, he faced both, and averaged 15 with a top score of 35.

In the 2001 home series, he faced both, and averaged 56.33 with a top score of 180.

In the 03/04 away series, he didn't face either, and averaged 123.80 with a top score of 233.

In the 04/05 home series, he faced both, and averaged 27.83 with a top score of 60.

And in the Super Series a few months ago, he faced both and averaged 11.5 with a duck and a score of 23.

All up - 11 tests, 21 innings, 1 NO, 767 runs @ 38.35, 2x50, 1x100

A solid effort, but certainly not spectacular, especially when you remove that one big score.

Very interesting figures.

Wonder what Ponting's average is against Warne and McGrath

 

[Prince EWS]

Very interesting figures.

Wonder what Ponting's average is against Warne and McGrath

Undefined.

 

[Sanz]

Dravid has an excellent record- far superior to Ponting away from home. While both are excellent at playing pace bowling ( Ponting marginally better than Dravid IMO), Ponting cannot hold a candle to Dravid while batting against spin, especially on spin-friendly tracks.

This is laughable @ Best, Ponting's away record has suffered because of his performance in India else he is superior to Dravid in almost every country. :-

In SA :-

Ponting - 77.25, Dravid - 42.11

In Pak :-

Ponting - 119.00 (+ 97.00 Vs. Pak @ UAE), Dravid - 77.25

In SL :-

Ponting - 54.45 , Dravid - 46.55 (So much for playing Spin)

In WI :-

Ponting - 98.71, Dravid - 63.66

In NZ :-

Ponting - 97.66, Dravid - 64.57

Dravid has a better away avg. in England in Zim. Ponting hasn't played in BD. It should be noted that early in his career Ponting had to bat @ No. 6-7 for quite some time (56 innings)

Also Dravid's avg. in Australia when he faced Mcgrath/Warne -

In 1999-2000 Test Series - 15.50
In 2005-2006 Super Series - 11.50

 

[Sanz]

Undefined.

Well yeah, but in such cases one can always compare their performance against common bowlers such as how Dravid/Ponting did against the Pakistani/WI/SA attacks of the late 90s and early 2000s or against the likes of Wasim, Waqar, AKhtar, ambrose, Walsh, Murali, Saqlain, Donald etc.

 

[Sanz]

I dont think the issue is that Punter has never had to play against his own attack. Just that against other great attacks he still hasnt faired so well.

Cant we say the same thing about Dravid as well and that he hasn't had to face the likes of Kumble/Harbhajan on turning pitches in India (considering that he has struggled against Warne and Murali for most of his career) ?

 

[SJS]

Personaly i think it's pointless to compare 2 of the best players in the world like this.

They are both great players,let's leave it at that. You could search forever through their stats but in the end they will tell you nothing.

Hear hear !!



Well said.

 

[howardj]

Even including the 180, this makes his average against Warne/McGrath quite similar to the one possessed by a "minnow-basher" by the name of Jacques Kallis... and his overall average against Australia is obviously inflated by "cashing in" when Australias top bowlers were missing.

Such as when? All of his 50+ scores have been made when McGrath and Warne have been in the team. Furthermore, even if you take out the minnows, the guy still averages 52 in Test cricket; 56 in Australia this summer; 50 the last time he toured Australia.

Anyway, back on topic. My vote would go to Ponting. I think his record in India is a little misleading. He only really had one bad series there, and that was in the embryonic stage of his career, and on his first tour to the subcontinent. I just think Ponting has more gears to his game than Dravid, and can make an impact whether he comes in at 1 for 200 or 1 for 2. That said, Dravid is a magnificent player.

 

[C_C]

Even including the 180, this makes his average against Warne/McGrath quite similar to the one possessed by a "minnow-basher" by the name of Jacques Kallis... and his overall average against Australia is obviously inflated by "cashing in" when Australias top bowlers were missing.

I would say Dravid is superior to Kallis, simply because his record against McGrath + Warne + Wasim + Waqar + Murali + Donald + Pollock is superior to Kallis's. Add in Dravid's superb average away from home and i think he has a genuine case for being considered the third best batsman of his era after Tendulkar and Lara. Ponting has a glaring weakness when it comes to playing spin bowling on spin-friendly tracks- something Dravid doesnt have. As long as Ponting doesnt rectify that, it is hard to consider him a true alltime-great batsman in the same patch as Tendulkar/Lara/Dravid. Dravid also is significantly superior away from home, which is a big thing in batsmanship, considering that most batsmen struggle away from home.