The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[capt_Luffy]

Nah, that's just your povertarian/scarcity mindset that is conditioned to associate more specialist batsmen with depth. That line-up has 4 bats who average ~50. It's not shallow. Hardik/Kapil at 6 and 7 add lower order firepower that India has traditionally lacked. No compromise on wicket taking threat with Kuldeep, Bumrah and Shami. Srinath and Kumble to play based on conditions.

Let's agree to disagree then. Don't really think Kapil is good enough to bat at 6, or that fire power is lacking with Yuvi, Dhoni and Kapil, but that's fine.

 

[Starfighter]

Hadlee? Davidson? Pollock? Just random names honestly I don’t know enough of their character off the top of my head

Brian Statham apparently.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Nah, that's just your povertarian/scarcity mindset that is conditioned to associate more specialist batsmen with depth. That line-up has 4 bats who average ~50.

Tendulkar averaged 44.

It would be much better with Ganguly somewhere in the top 4 and drop Hardik Pandya.

That team lacks the batting depth to cope with all-time ODI attacks.

 

[GirthQuake]

Tendulkar averaged 44.

It would be much better with Ganguly somewhere in the top 4 and drop Hardik Pandya.

That team lacks the batting depth to cope with all-time ODI attacks.

Yes Tendulkar averaged 45 and hence I wrote ~ it means approximately. Not sure why you felt you had to point that out.

Of course, Tendulkar also averaged 45 (with a SR in late 80s) while making his debut in 80s playing under very different rules. Vastly superior to his peers who were themselves no slouches. These days we have journeymen like Conway etc averaging that much in ODIs. Not at all outlandish to think Sachin might have averaged 10-15 runs more in this era with a SR of near 100.

4 ATG batsmen in Dhoni, Sachin, Kohli and Rohit is probably THE most explosive and adaptable line-up to handle whatever attack one can cobble together.

 

[Victor Ian]

I'd agree that Sachin would have mad stats playing today. But I'm not sure he would be your man for ATG attacks.

 

[Victor Ian]

But maybe if everything didn't depend on him he would not crack in the big games and be better. Dunno.

 

[bagapath]

India's All time ODI XI for the time being

Sachin
Rohit
Kohli
Yuvi
Dhoni
Kapil
Hardik
Kuldeep
Kumble/Srinath
Bumrah
Shami

KL had a chance to overtake Yuvi at 4 but his tapering form and Yuvi's overall body of work plus his useful SLA tips the balance. Shocking how far ahead Kuldeep is from the rest of spinners in LOIs.

To play against

Virender Sehwag
Shubman Gil
Saurav Ganguly *
KL Rahul
Suresh Raina
Rishab Pant +
Ravinder Jadeja
Irfan Pathan
Zaheer Khan
Mohammad Siraj
Yuzvendra Chahal

 

[Sunil1z]

Replace Gill with Dhawan who was ATG bat in ICC Tournaments.( ODI)

 

[capt_Luffy]

To play against

Virender Sehwag
Shubman Gil
Saurav Ganguly *
KL Rahul
Suresh Raina
Rishab Pant +
Ravinder Jadeja
Irfan Pathan
Zaheer Khan
Mohammad Siraj
Yuzvendra Chahal

No Dhawan?? Surely he comes ahead of Gill.

 

[Sunil1z]

No Dhawan?? Surely he comes ahead of Gill.

Also Harbhajan ahead of Chahal and Dravid ahead of KL Rahul

 

[capt_Luffy]

Also Harbhajan ahead of Chahal and Dravid ahead of KL Rahul

I also don't think Pant has the ODI record to really be there. Especially after the WC, KL all the way.

 

[Coronis]

ATG Aussie XI (20th century)

Simpson
Morris
Bradman*
Chappell
Waugh
Border
Healy+
Lindwall
Davidson
Lillee
O’Reilly

vs Aussie XI (21st century)

Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Smith
Clarke
Hussey
Gilchrist+
Warne
Cummins
Hazlewood
McGrath

Starc and Hazlewood was a close call. Khawaja and Langer aren’t that far apart.

England

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Compton
Botham
Knott+
Trueman
Laker
Barnes

Cook
Strauss
Bell
Root
Pietersen
Stokes*
Prior+
Broad
Swann
Hoggard
Anderson

Hoggard > Lillee

 

[TheJediBrah]

Starc and Hazlewood was a close call

They shouldn't be. Starc is lucky Pattinson was permanently injured, he would have been 4th at best for the last decade

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Which other ATG (or atleast World Class) pacer will you suggest then??

Woakes.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Woakes.

It's about men, not those who have attained nirvana

 

[kyear2]

Not sure where to place this, and it's nothing definitive. I just found the first session of cricket today to be somewhat instructive and in many ways a microcosm of the game.

Duckett coming out and putting the bowlers to the sword. It wouldn't happen every day, but the value derived from being able to put the bowlers on the back foot, and off rhythm, force field and bowling changes and put your team ahead of a game. That's I valuable and should be factored into batting ratings. If it's the bowlers role to keep things as quiet as possible and take wickets, it's just as valuable to be able to push the scoring rate and throw of the fielding teams plans.

The ability to have a fifth bowling option is critical to a team in the best of times, allowing rotations and eat etc. in events like this morning when your openers are taken to the shed, it's vital to have that additional option, allowing flexibility and relief.

And slip catching. The early break though and the danger man we're both dismissed by brilliant efforts in the cordon. And even the later put downs shows why it's so absolutely critical to have the absolute best guys back there. Every take is literally a wicket and drop a missed opportunity for one. In England, Australia, New Zealand, The Caribbean, and South Africa, tour bowling is only as good as the support behind the stumps. You can only overcome so much, especially in evenly matched contests.

 

[Coronis]

So its almost 2025. So I wanted to do a different group of XIs. Broken down (roughly) quarter century, which I haven’t seen here before.

So I’ve tried to go with not just who I think were the absolute best players and the best team balance, but for closer ones, the players I think defined those eras. Also, I’ve tried to help keep teams somewhat even with era crossing players. I also slightly played favourites.


1877-1899
Grace*
Bannerman
Shrewsbury
Murdoch
McLaren
Giffen
Blackham+
Trumble
Lohmann
Turner
Spofforth

So this one especially, is the least stats based. McLaren and Trumble crossover a bit (a lot in McLaren’s case) but these are all the iconic names I think of when I think of the 19th century players. Trumble’s best work came in the 1900’s but I really had no opinion either way on most of the other bowlers in question, and I loved reading about him growing up.

1900-1925
Hobbs
Taylor
Hill
Trumper
Faulkner
Gregory
Rhodes
Noble*
Lilley+
Blythe
Barnes

Ok so, not exactly a conventional XI, but who cares. I never knew much about the keepers from this era, but I’ve always remembered the name Dick Lilley since I was a kid. Trumper was better in the middle order, plus it gives Herbie Taylor a channce to shine. Then we’ve got a lot of allrounders. Faulkner is an obvious choice, the others perhaps not so much. But Rhodes, Noble, Gregory… they were all icons and players I think of in the immediate pre and post war eras.

Another day I might put Trumper as the opener and have Armstrong in there instead… that’s a big omission now thinking on it… I could replace Gregory but I do need his pace bowling.

1926-1949
Sutcliffe
Mitchell
Bradman*
Hammond
Headley
Nourse
Ames+
Larwood
Grimmett
Voce
O’Reilly

O’Reilly aside, we have relatively weak bowling here. So I decided to stack the batting by having Ames rather than Oldfield. I chose Grimmett rather than a third pacer because yeah, he took the most wickets in this era, I really couldn’t leave him out. Hutton I didn’t choose in this one, despite him having slightly more runs here than in the 50’s. I felt him + Sutcliffe was a bit much and he was always in my mind the bridge between Bradman and Sobers.

1950-1975
Hutton
Simpson*
Pollock
Barrington
Walcott
Sobers
Knott+
Lindwall
Davidson
Trueman
Tayfield

Miller is unlucky here, as is Weekes, but with Sobers there was simply no room for Miller, and one of the W’s is enough for me, and I had to have Pollock. Boycott was a consideration, but I chose him for the next team so Simpson could be here, to keep things more evenish.


1976-1999
Gavaskar
Boycott
Lara
Tendulkar
Richards
Imran*
Healy+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose

Lillee and Wasim are quite unlucky here. I had a hard time choosing between them and Ambrose.

No, you’re not misreading, I did in fact choose Viv! He was iconic, and Chappell had a more significant crossover period. The batting here is a bit of a weakness compared to some teams, but this era’s strength (especially 80’s and 90’s) was its bowling, so I played to that.

2000-2024

Smith*
Hayden
Dravid
Smith
Ponting
Kallis
Gilchrist+
Steyn
Murali
Anderson
McGrath

Sehwag is an obvious snub here. Him and Hayden, I can really go either way on so I put the Aussie in. I do hate Anderson, but his career has encompassed almost the entire period, compared to the relatively small sample sizes of the current fast 3. Definitely iconic.

I also chose Dravid, rather than Sanga (who I rate more highly). He fits better in there at 3, surrounded by aggressive batsmen, plus how could I have an XI of this century so far without a player from one of the big 3 nations?

 

[capt_Luffy]

So its almost 2025. So I wanted to do a different group of XIs. Broken down (roughly) quarter century, which I haven’t seen here before.

So I’ve tried to go with not just who I think were the absolute best players and the best team balance, but for closer ones, the players I think defined those eras. Also, I’ve tried to help keep teams somewhat even with era crossing players. I also slightly played favourites.


1877-1899
Grace*
Bannerman
Shrewsbury
Murdoch
McLaren
Giffen
Blackham+
Trumble
Lohmann
Turner
Spofforth

So this one especially, is the least stats based. McLaren and Trumble crossover a bit (a lot in McLaren’s case) but these are all the iconic names I think of when I think of the 19th century players. Trumble’s best work came in the 1900’s but I really had no opinion either way on most of the other bowlers in question, and I loved reading about him growing up.

1900-1925
Hobbs
Taylor
Hill
Trumper
Faulkner
Gregory
Rhodes
Noble*
Lilley+
Blythe
Barnes

Ok so, not exactly a conventional XI, but who cares. I never knew much about the keepers from this era, but I’ve always remembered the name Dick Lilley since I was a kid. Trumper was better in the middle order, plus it gives Herbie Taylor a channce to shine. Then we’ve got a lot of allrounders. Faulkner is an obvious choice, the others perhaps not so much. But Rhodes, Noble, Gregory… they were all icons and players I think of in the immediate pre and post war eras.

Another day I might put Trumper as the opener and have Armstrong in there instead… that’s a big omission now thinking on it… I could replace Gregory but I do need his pace bowling.

1926-1949
Sutcliffe
Mitchell
Bradman*
Hammond
Headley
Nourse
Ames+
Larwood
Grimmett
Voce
O’Reilly

O’Reilly aside, we have relatively weak bowling here. So I decided to stack the batting by having Ames rather than Oldfield. I chose Grimmett rather than a third pacer because yeah, he took the most wickets in this era, I really couldn’t leave him out. Hutton I didn’t choose in this one, despite him having slightly more runs here than in the 50’s. I felt him + Sutcliffe was a bit much and he was always in my mind the bridge between Bradman and Sobers.

1950-1975
Hutton
Simpson*
Pollock
Barrington
Walcott
Sobers
Knott+
Lindwall
Davidson
Trueman
Tayfield

Miller is unlucky here, as is Weekes, but with Sobers there was simply no room for Miller, and one of the W’s is enough for me, and I had to have Pollock. Boycott was a consideration, but I chose him for the next team so Simpson could be here, to keep things more evenish.


1976-1999
Gavaskar
Boycott
Lara
Tendulkar
Richards
Imran*
Healy+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose

Lillee and Wasim are quite unlucky here. I had a hard time choosing between them and Ambrose.

No, you’re not misreading, I did in fact choose Viv! He was iconic, and Chappell had a more significant crossover period. The batting here is a bit of a weakness compared to some teams, but this era’s strength (especially 80’s and 90’s) was its bowling, so I played to that.

2000-2024

Smith*
Hayden
Dravid
Smith
Ponting
Kallis
Gilchrist+
Steyn
Murali
Anderson
McGrath

Sehwag is an obvious snub here. Him and Hayden, I can really go either way on so I put the Aussie in. I do hate Anderson, but his career has encompassed almost the entire period, compared to the relatively small sample sizes of the current fast 3. Definitely iconic.

I also chose Dravid, rather than Sanga (who I rate more highly). He fits better in there at 3, surrounded by aggressive batsmen, plus how could I have an XI of this century so far without a player from one of the big 3 nations?

I would say Ranji is a notable omission in the first team.

 

[Qlder]

1976-1999
Gavaskar
Boycott
Lara
Tendulkar
Richards
Imran*
Healy+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose

Great post and obviously a lot of work, but nothing grinds my gears more than Imran batting #6 in an ATG side.

Out of 126 innings he batted 23 times at #6 (a lot of those when limited in bowling). So you're leaving out a Chappell/ Border/Waugh for a #7 at best (he batted 63 times at #7 and 30 times at #8)

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Good teams

Ranji in the 1st team?
MacCartney in the 2nd.

Tate (or Cowie) ahead of Voce
Also Nourse was a better bat, but McCabe gives a decent 4th seamer (Wally H as 3rd).

Tayfield is an interesting pick