The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[capt_Luffy]

You've done a great job here. I've tried to get Kohli (2023) and McGrath (2007) in as player of the tournaments those years but can't find the team balance

Edit: I forgot about the subs. So instead of Shami you can put Kohli (2023) in at 5 with De Silva (1996) becoming a sub with Imran (1987) to bowl

I also wanted McGrath 2007, but in that case the team isn't getting a Top Tier spinner. As for 2023 WC, I actually think Shami (very slightly) was better than Kohl, so I don't want to trade team balance for him as I don't think he is much suited to bat at 5...... Anyways, here's an alternative XI:

1. Sachin Tendulkar (1996)
2. Gordon Greenidge (1979)
3. Kumar Sangakkara (2015) (wk)
4. Virat Kohli (2023)
5. Yuvraj Singh (2011)
6. Andrew Symmonds (2003)
7. Imran Khan (1987) (c)
8. Wasim Akram (1992)
9. Mitchell Starc (2019)
10. Shane Warne (1999)
11. Glenn McGrath (2007)

 

[CricketFan90s]

I also wanted McGrath 2007, but in that case the team isn't getting a Top Tier spinner. As for 2023 WC, I actually think Shami (very slightly) was better than Kohl, so I don't want to trade team balance for him as I don't think he is much suited to bat at 5...... Anyways, here's an alternative XI:

1. Sachin Tendulkar (1996)
2. Gordon Greenidge (1979)
3. Kumar Sangakkara (2015) (wk)
4. Virat Kohli (2023)
5. Yuvraj Singh (2011)
6. Andrew Symmonds (2003)
7. Imran Khan (1987) (c)
8. Wasim Akram (1992)
9. Shane Warne (1999)
10. Gary Gilmour (1975)
11. Glenn McGrath (2007)

never thought about it but an innovative way to form an all time world cup XI

 

[kyear2]

Miller is just fulfilling the role of a bowling allrounder in the team and the new ball will be shared by lillee and mcgrath so it wont make any difference.

See this is what happens when we take this, factoring in batting into bowling selections idiocy too far.

Keith Miller isn't a good enough bowler to make that team, period. Lindwall also isn't nearly as good as Lillee, so that's an automatic swap.

Gayle is not a great test batsman and is not even in consideration. Me personally I'm opening with Worrell, as that's what he did during his career, move around to fit into any weak areas and he would captain the side. Headley is also an automatic selection.

If not Worrell, Roy Fredericks.

 

[kyear2]

Also don't know why SA is left out of this discussion. A top 4 of Richards, Smith, Kallis and Pollock is as great as any and a pace attack of Steyn, Donald and Procter is 2nd only to the west indies.
It "bats deep", has deep bowling and a superb cordon.

It's a three team conversation.

 

[capt_Luffy]

See this is what happens when we take this, factoring in batting into bowling selections idiocy too far.

Keith Miller isn't a good enough bowler to make that team, period. Lindwall also isn't nearly as good as Lillee, so that's an automatic swap.

Gayle is not a great test batsman and is not even in consideration. Me personally I'm opening with Worrell, as that's what he did during his career, move around to fit into any weak areas and he would captain the side. Headley is also an automatic selection.

If not Worrell, Roy Fredericks.

Hard disagree. They are quite close imo.

Also, if not Worrell then Hunte is ahead of Fredericks.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Also don't know why SA is left out of this discussion. A top 4 of Richards, Smith, Kallis and Pollock is as great as any and a pace attack of Steyn, Donald and Procter is 2nd only to the west indies.
It "bats deep", has deep bowling and a superb cordon.

It's a three team conversation.

SA team is a dark horse. You undermine England too much imo

 

[kyear2]

SA team is a dark horse. You undermine England too much imo

In my humble opinion, the most important factor in such a competition would be your pace attack, especially one that travels. Pace attack and middle orders are lynchpins of dynasties.

Trueman didn't travel especially well, Hammond was ATG, but against the 3 pace attacks in question, ummmmm. That leaves Barrington and Root?

Not saying they aren't 4th, and the openers aren't immense, just don't see them defeating the other 3 teams.

 

[Red]

Even more ignorant than first suspected. Miller is not good enough to be the third pacer in an ATG Aussie side. Same way Lloyd isn’t good enough to be in the WI ATG side.

Not sure what you’re basing this on, but I can see no real reason why Miller isn’t good enough to be a third pacer in a scenario.

 

[capt_Luffy]

In my humble opinion, the most important factor in such a competition would be your pace attack, especially one that travels. Pace attack and middle orders are lynchpins of dynasties.

Trueman didn't travel especially well, Hammond was ATG, but against the 3 pace attacks in question, ummmmm. That leaves Barrington and Root?

Not saying they aren't 4th, and the openers aren't immense, just don't see them defeating the other 3 teams.

I would bet on them over SA honestly. The best pair of openers, Hutton Hammond Ranji and Root in the middle order, Ames behind the stumps, a spinner like Laker and a more than capable attack led by Barnes with Trueman and Anderson. SA is close, especially due to the tail and bowling options, but I would keep England ahead.
Also, I believe Peterhrt pointed out how Hammond really didn't struggled more than most ATG batsmen against quality pace.

 

[Coronis]

Not sure what you’re basing this on, but I can see no real reason why Miller isn’t good enough to be a third pacer in a scenario.

In an Aussie ATG team? As the third pacer? When he isn’t even considered one of the top 5 Australian pacers? Do I need another reason?

 

[capt_Luffy]

In an Aussie ATG team? As the third pacer? When he isn’t even considered one of the top 5 Australian pacers? Do I need another reason?

He is around the 6th best pacer though. Now add his batting the level of a pure batsman and I can see why some people might want him ahead of Lindwall. Although I would probably go with 4 pacers and he will be the 3rd only on turners when I will field Warne and O'Reilly together.

 

[Coronis]

I would bet on them over SA honestly. The best pair of openers, Hutton Hammond Ranji and Root in the middle order, Ames behind the stumps, a spinner like Laker and a more than capable attack led by Barnes with Trueman and Anderson. SA is close, especially due to the tail and bowling options, but I would keep England ahead.
Also, I believe Peterhrt pointed out how Hammond really didn't struggled more than most ATG batsmen against quality pace.

It depends how much credit we’re giving to Richards and Procter tbh, but SA is generally considered ahead. Better bowling, AB vs any English keeper bat, a middle order that stacks up similarly to England’s and inferior openers. More in their favour than against.

General consensus I believe is Aus > Windies > SA > England

Pakistan used to be 5th but in the past 10 years a lot has swung towards India I believe.

 

[Coronis]

He is around the 6th best pacer though. Now add his batting the level of a pure batsman and I can see why some people might want him ahead of Lindwall. Although I would probably go with 4 pacers and he will be the 3rd only on turners when I will field Warne and O'Reilly together.

For comparison Anderson was rated above him in the bowlers poll… Anderson is the one dragging the English attack down (presuming a 4 man attack w/o Botham) and this is what we want to do to Australia? Drag their attack down to that level? C’mon guys.

 

[kyear2]

I would bet on them over SA honestly. The best pair of openers, Hutton Hammond Ranji and Root in the middle order, Ames behind the stumps, a spinner like Laker and a more than capable attack led by Barnes with Trueman and Anderson. SA is close, especially due to the tail and bowling options, but I would keep England ahead.
Also, I believe Peterhrt pointed out how Hammond really didn't struggled more than most ATG batsmen against quality pace.

Going by his words he wasn't comfortable vs Martindale and Constantine, and that's putting it mildly. Yes they were bowling short, but what do you think Marshall, Garner, Lillee, Donald and Procter will be bowling?

 

[Qlder]

I don't understand all this talk about Mller being 3rd pacer. He's the best allrounder Australia's ever had and should rightfully claim the #6 batting spot and be the extra pacer as needed. Having that extra world class bowler is what makes the team so much stronger

 

[capt_Luffy]

For comparison Anderson was rated above him in the bowlers poll… Anderson is the one dragging the English attack down (presuming a 4 man attack w/o Botham) and this is what we want to do to Australia? Drag their attack down to that level? C’mon guys.

With Bradman and Gilchrist in the team, I would make Miller bat at 6 and go with a 5 man attack. As I said, he will be my 3rd pacer only when Warne and O'Reilly will be together.

It depends how much credit we’re giving to Richards and Procter tbh, but SA is generally considered ahead. Better bowling, AB vs any English keeper bat, a middle order that stacks up similarly to England’s and inferior openers. More in their favour than against.

General consensus I believe is Aus > Windies > SA > England

Pakistan used to be 5th but in the past 10 years a lot has swung towards India I believe.

I get the consensus and I can see why, but I also think it boils down to how highly someone rates Grace, Ranji and especially Barnes. Imo, SA bowling is ahead as, Steyn=Barnes, Donald=Trueman, Pollock>Anderson, Procter>Laker, Faulkner=Grace, and Kallis>Hammond. But also, English batting is more ahead as among the Top 6 bats of both teams, England have all 6 imo and one of them isn't even making their team.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Going by his words he wasn't comfortable vs Martindale and Constantine, and that's putting it mildly. Yes they were bowling short, but what do you think Marshall, Garner, Lillee, Donald and Procter will be bowling?

With proper gears, I don't think he would much troubled. He also averaged 35 against them and played arguably the greatest sub 50 innings. And for the matter of fact, leg theory has troubled every single batsman to ever play, even Bradman.

 

[kyear2]

Head to head

Simpson
Hayden
Bradman
Smith
Chappell
Border
Gilchrist
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

Greenidge
Worrell
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding / Gibbs
Garner
Ambrose

Richards
Smith
Kallis
Pollock
Nourse
de Villiers / Faulkner
de Kock
Procter
Steyn
Tayfield
Donald

Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Root
Barrington
Botham
Knott
Verity
Trueman
Anderson
Barnes

I could be wrong, but England just looks weaker.

 

[kyear2]

I don't understand all this talk about Mller being 3rd pacer. He's the best allrounder Australia's ever had and should rightfully claim the #6 batting spot and be the extra pacer as needed. Having that extra world class bowler is what makes the team so much stronger

And you're a batsman short. Plus with Warne, as needed may not be that often.

You already have Simpson and Border than can fill in as your 5th bowler.

 

[kyear2]

With proper gears, I don't think he would much troubled. He also averaged 35 against them and played arguably the greatest sub 50 innings. And for the matter of fact, leg theory has troubled every single batsman to ever play, even Bradman.

35 against them is how much vs Maco, Garner and co?