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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Slifer
International Captain
I'm bored WI:
Rae
Braithwaite
Sarwan
Butcher
Nurse
Adams
Alexander
OG Smith
Holder (Jason)
Griffith (Charles)
Roach
trundler
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Stollmeyer?
Slifer
International Captain
Stollmeyer would be used up by the 3rd team:
First
Hunte
Greenidge
Headley
Viv*
Lara
Sobers
Dujon+
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Gibbs
2nd
Gayle
Fredricks
Weekes
Kanhai
Worrell
Lloyd*
Walcott+
Roberts
Garner
Walsh
Ramadhin
3rd
Stollmeyer
Haynes
Richardson*
Kallicharan
Chanderpaul
Rowe
Hendricks +
Bishop
Hall
Croft
Valentine
4th
Rae
Braithwaite
Sarwan
Butcher
Adams
Nurse
Alexander+*
OG Smith
Holder J
Griffith C
Roach
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, I don't think that's far off, though I'd probably find a place for Kumble. For India, more than probably most other ATXIs, I tend towards home and away teams with the "default" (home) team having a third spinner and just the two quicks, while the away team has a third quick in place of a spinner.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Great sides - not that we didn't already know, but the depth of quality of middle-order batting and pace bowling really is ludicrous.
No room for Constantine or Martindale? I would have thought both of them could claim a spot by the 4th XI.
Coronis
International Coach
Them too.
Slifer
International Captain
I considered them along with the likes of Clark, Davis, Daniel, etc but I chose players who played a decent number of tests. Rae was probably my only exception.
Ranji should probably get into the first 4 XIs, and Trott and Thorpe are also contenders.
I'd have Greig in the all-rounder spot instead of Rhodes, who at Test level was usually either "spinner and useful tail-end batter" or "opener who bowls a bit" rather than all-rounder.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
I've made the same point about Rhodes often, as I know others have as well. He's so hard to pick in one of these teams because while his numbers suggest a spin-bowling genuine all-rounder, at Test level he never really was.
As for the batsmen, I agree about Ranji and Thorpe, though of the later generation I'd say Bell is an even bigger miss than Trott.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Agreed. In that case, Kumble will find a place in both teams but in a combined home/away team, he won't find a place.
Home
Sehwag
Gavaskar
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni
Kapil
Jadeja
Ashwin
Kumble
Bumrah
Away
Sehwag
Gavaskar
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni
Kapil
Jadeja
Kumble
Shami
Bumrah
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
Agree with Rhodes not being a genuine Test match all rounder. But I think that he was still good enough to be the specialist spinner in an ATG team. If Verity, Laker and Underwood are better bowlers then it’s certainly not by much.
A few all-time India Test XIs from past and present:
1966 (Dicky Rutnagur): Merchant, Mushtaq Ali, Vijay Manjrekar, Hazare, CK Nayudu*, Lala Amarnath, Mankad, Amar Singh, Tamhane+, Nissar, Gupte.
1979 (Cricket Society members): Gavaskar*, Merchant, Mankad, Hazare, Viswanath, Engineer+, Kapil Dev, Amar Singh, Nissar, Bedi, Chandra.
2007 (Seven ex-captains of India): Gavaskar, Merchant, Dravid, Tendulkar, Hazare, Mankad, Kapil Dev, Kirmani+, Prasanna, Nissar, Gupte.
2010 (Cricinfo – Eleven Indian journalists): Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Hazare, Mankad, Dhoni+, Kapil Dev, Kumble, Srinath, Prasanna.
2016 (Three Indian publications marking India's 500th Test): The following seven players appeared in all three teams: Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Dhoni, Kapil Dev and Kumble. Nominations for the remaining four places: Laxman 2, Nissar 2, Gupte 2, Hazare 1, Mankad 1, Ashwin 1, Amar Singh 1, Srinath 1, Zaheer Khan 1.
2020-2023 (12 online sources - journalists and ex-players - of which nine are Indian with one each from England, Australia and USA. Nominations in brackets): Gavaskar (12), Sehwag (12), Dravid (12), Tendulkar (12), Kohli (10), Dhoni+ (12), Kapil Dev (12), Ashwin (7), Kumble (12), Zaheer Khan (10), and Bumrah (5) or Srinath (5). Bedi received four nominations, nobody else more than one. Jadeja did not receive any nominations. Nor did Shami.
Peak ICC Rankings: Gavaskar, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli, Pant+, Jadeja, Kapil Dev, Ashwin, Kumble, Bumrah.
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Attempting to summarise the data above.
The first five batsmen appear set in stone, with Sehwag having replaced Merchant and Kohli ousting Hazare. Until fairly recently Mankad was an automatic choice, blocking Bedi. On paper Jadeja is a viable alternative, but journalists don't pick him, instead reverting to Bedi or choosing another seamer.
Any challenge Pant might have offered Dhoni is on hold. Like Jadeja he would have provided a left-handed batsman. Kumble remains the most popular spinner.
Perhaps surprisingly, Zaheer Khan is most journalists' choice to support Kapil Dev. In selections this century Srinath has sometimes lost out to pre-war Nissar. Has Bumrah's profile in India been affected by the fact that he has only played four home Tests?
So media consensus team could be: Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli*, Dhoni+, Kapil Dev, Ashwin, Kumble, Zaheer Khan, Bumrah or Bedi.
The first five batsmen appear set in stone, with Sehwag having replaced Merchant and Kohli ousting Hazare. Until fairly recently Mankad was an automatic choice, blocking Bedi. On paper Jadeja is a viable alternative, but journalists don't pick him, instead reverting to Bedi or choosing another seamer.
Any challenge Pant might have offered Dhoni is on hold. Like Jadeja he would have provided a left-handed batsman. Kumble remains the most popular spinner.
Perhaps surprisingly, Zaheer Khan is most journalists' choice to support Kapil Dev. In selections this century Srinath has sometimes lost out to pre-war Nissar. Has Bumrah's profile in India been affected by the fact that he has only played four home Tests?
So media consensus team could be: Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli*, Dhoni+, Kapil Dev, Ashwin, Kumble, Zaheer Khan, Bumrah or Bedi.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Gambhir lmao
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
Must confess to being a bit of a VVS Laxman fan because he was one of the few Indian batsman that looked so good on Australian pitches (average 44), and because he played Warne better than even Tendulkar.
This innings at the SCG in January 2000 was a visual master-piece…...
This innings at the SCG in January 2000 was a visual master-piece…...
| BATTING | R | B | 4s | 6s | SR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| VVS Laxman | 167 | 198 | 27 | 0 | 84.34 |
| c †Gilchrist b Lee | |||||
| Mannava Prasad † | 3 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 42.85 |
| c ME Waugh b McGrath | |||||
| Rahul Dravid | 0 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0.00 |
| c Warne b McGrath | |||||
| Sachin Tendulkar (c) | 4 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 100.00 |
| c Langer b Fleming | |||||
| Sourav Ganguly | 25 | 51 | 3 | 0 | 49.01 |
| c ME Waugh b McGrath | |||||
| Hrishikesh Kanitkar | 8 | 19 | 1 | 0 | 42.10 |
| c Slater b Lee | |||||
| Anil Kumble | 15 | 45 | 3 | 0 | 33.33 |
| c Ponting b McGrath | |||||
| Ajit Agarkar | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0.00 |
| c †Gilchrist b McGrath | |||||
| Javagal Srinath | 15 | 27 | 1 | 0 | 55.55 |
| not out | |||||
| Venkatesh Prasad | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 150.00 |
| run out (†Gilchrist) | |||||
| Vijay Bharadwaj | - | - | - | - | - |
| absent hurt | |||||
| Extras | 21 | (b 4, lb 2, nb 14, w 1) | |||
| TOTAL | 261 | 58 Ov (RR: 4.50) |
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Virender Sehwag
03. VVS Laxman
04. Sachin Tendulkar
05. Vijay Hazare
06. Rahul Dravid
07. MS Dhoni
08. Kapil Dev
09. Mohammad Shami
10. Zaheer Khan
11. Subhash Gupte
Hazare is the 5th bowler. He bowled a lot more in FC cricket compared to Tests, but was still good enough to bowl Bradman twice.
It would be great to include Bumrah in the team because he is only Indian bowler (from memory) who has a sub-30 away bowling average, but only 30 Tests isn’t really enough for a contemporary bowler.
Zaheer Khan’s quality left-arm seam gives the attack variety.
Dravid can play the Border/Steve Waugh role at No.6; something he did very well from time to time.
02. Virender Sehwag
03. VVS Laxman
04. Sachin Tendulkar
05. Vijay Hazare
06. Rahul Dravid
07. MS Dhoni
08. Kapil Dev
09. Mohammad Shami
10. Zaheer Khan
11. Subhash Gupte
Hazare is the 5th bowler. He bowled a lot more in FC cricket compared to Tests, but was still good enough to bowl Bradman twice.
It would be great to include Bumrah in the team because he is only Indian bowler (from memory) who has a sub-30 away bowling average, but only 30 Tests isn’t really enough for a contemporary bowler.
Zaheer Khan’s quality left-arm seam gives the attack variety.
Dravid can play the Border/Steve Waugh role at No.6; something he did very well from time to time.
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The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
I'd love watching this team bat - they'd score plenty of runs and would be a joy to watch doing so. But I reckon it's seriously optimistic fielding an Indian team with just four bowlers - only one of whom is a spinner - especially as none of them are genuine greats (Kapil is probably line ball, as he was definitely world class for a long period).
I just don't see this team taking 20 wickets consistently against the other ATXI batting lineups they'll be bowling to.
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
Indian cricket has failed to produce many genuine batting allrounders during its history for some reason. The only stand-out candidate that I can think of is Vinoo Mankad, and he is not going to replace Gavaskar or Sehwag at the top of the order because he was so inconsistent in his scoring.
So I think that the best way to go is to pack the batting, score 400+, and then hope that Kapil, Khan and Gupte can put the opposition batting order under pressure. Still not sure about Shami, but the other bowlers are class and shouldn’t be underestimated.
Also I don’t think that Dhoni or Kapil are bona fide No.6 Batman, which is why they both spent most of their Test career batting at No.7. Dhoni was brilliant when batting at No.6 in ODIs, but Test match cricket is a very different beast.
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