The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

I'd like to see that 1946 battle the 1971 England side. Played at the SCG, it would be some Test match. Interestingly, both of these great teams didn't mind increasing their bowling strength by playing bowling-allrounders (mediocre batsman) at No.6;

AUSTRALIA
01. Barnes
02. Morris
03. Bradman*
04. Hassett
05. Miller
06. McCool
07. Johnson
08. Tallon+
09. Lindwall
10. Tribe
11. Toshack

ENGLAND
01. Boycott
02. Edrich
03. Fletcher
04. D'Oliveria
05. Hampshire
06. Illingworth*
07. Knott+
08. Snow
09. P. Lever
10. Underwood
11. Willis

England would get smashed imo.

 

[harsh.ag]

I would love to witness a match between South African team of 1970 and the Windies team of the late 70s - early 80s.

For India, I think the best side ever put on field was in around 2003. Slightly better than the 83-85 India.

South Africa is the trickiest though. I think I might have to give it to the current team. Very consistent. Pakistan's was definitely in the mid to late 80s.

I find it outside my power to name one for England. Really want to know about that too. Hope someone has a go at that.

 

[Coronis]

I would say a team somewhere in the 50's, with Hutton, Compton, May, Trueman, Bedser, Laker, Lock. Dunno if they ever all played together, but I'm sure there would be some combination of them. Not to mention Tyson, Statham and Cowdrey were all also playing around that time iirc.

 

[watson]

England would get smashed imo.

There's some seasoned campaigners in that England team who had just won 2 consecutive series against the West Indies, and John Snow was about to steam-roll the Australian batting line-up on their own home soil. The 1946 Australian side would have been rusty after not playing a Test match in 6 or so years.

In no way would Illingworth's team get smashed.

 

[Red]

The 1948 Australians were probably the best balanced team Australia have put on the field. The fifth test team against Eng was:


- Sid Barnes
- Arthur Morris
- Don Bradman *
- Lindsay Hassett
- Keith Miller
- Neil Harvey
- Sam Loxton
- Ray Lindwall
- Don Tallon +
- Doug Ring
- Bill Johnston


Notes:

Truly great L/R hand opening pair (both ATG)
Bradman (ATG)
Lindwall, Miller and Loxton as complimentary all-rounders
Left handed bat in the middle order (Harvey- possibly ATG)
Excellent keeper (possibly ATG)
Two right arm quicks (both ATG), a left arm medium pace swing/seam bowler, leg spinner plus right arm support from Loxton.

There are at least seven players in this team who could be classified ATGs.

 

[kyear2]

1984 West Indian that faced Australia was pretty handy as well.

Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Richie Richardson
Larry Gomes
IVA Richards
Clive Lloyd
Jeffrey Dujon
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Courtney Walsh

Eight possible ATG's in that team.

 

[watson]

Got to be asked. If you had a lazy grand, who would you put your money on to win a 6-Test series? That is, 3 in Australia and 3 in the West Indies;

Bradman's 1948 Team, or Lloyd's 1984 Team?

 

[harsh.ag]

Got to be asked. If you had a lazy grand, who would you put your money on to win a 6-Test series? That is, 3 in Australia and 3 in the West Indies;

Bradman's 1948 Team, or Lloyd's 1984 Team?

Lloyd's team, fo' shizzles.

 

[harsh.ag]

Which of the two teams would win in a face-off:

Team 1: Sutcliffe | Greenidge | Don | Miandad | Waugh, Steve | Flower + | Miller | Holding | Laker | Larwood | Barnes

Team 2: Barry | Trumper | Viv | Harvey, Neil | Kallis | Sobers | Knott + | Procter | Garner | O'Reilly | Steyn |

 

[Coronis]

1984 West Indian that faced Australia was pretty handy as well.

Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Richie Richardson
Larry Gomes
IVA Richards
Clive Richards
Jeffrey Dujon
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Courtney Walsh

Eight possible ATG's in that team.

Never heard of Clive Richards, was he any good? Anyway just give the edge to the 48 team. Just.

 

[kyear2]

Sid Barnes
Arthur Morris
Don Bradman *
Lindsay Hassett
Keith Miller
Neil Harvey
Sam Loxton
Ray Lindwall
Don Tallon +
Doug Ring
Bill Johnston

Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Richie Richardson
Larry Gomes
IVA Richards
Clive Lloyd *
Jeffrey Dujon +
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Courtney Walsh

Really close, none of the games would end in a draw with these two bowling attacks, and for me the '84 attack is just a little bit better. Bottom line Marshall was in his prime and absolute best, Bradman no longer was.
Are we using the new ball every 55 overs or '84 rules?

 

[Coronis]

You can't say Bradman wasn't at his best, he actually averaged around 90 in the first half of his career, and 110 in the latter half of his career, and even after WWII, averaged over 100. I'd say the 48 team has a bit of a batting edge though. Would have Harvey at 5.

 

[watson]

Sid Barnes
Arthur Morris
Don Bradman *
Lindsay Hassett
Keith Miller
Neil Harvey
Sam Loxton
Ray Lindwall
Don Tallon +
Doug Ring
Bill Johnston

Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Richie Richardson
Larry Gomes
IVA Richards
Clive Lloyd *
Jeffrey Dujon +
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Courtney Walsh

Really close, none of the games would end in a draw with these two bowling attacks, and for me the '84 attack is just a little bit better. Bottom line Marshall was in his prime and absolute best, Bradman no longer was.
Are we using the new ball every 55 overs or '84 rules?

That's an interesting point. If the West Indies fast-bowling line-up is getting a new ball every 55 x 8-ball overs (73 x 6-ball overs) then you'd have to favour Lloyd's team slightly I think.

So to even things up - let's assume that the 6 Test series will be played using 2013 rules and 2013 equipment (body armour).

Who would win now?

 

[smash84]

the problem with running into an AT Aussie XI is that it has Bradman in it and assuming that all players will be performing at their best then it kind of gives the Aussies an extra batsman and add Gilchrist to the fray and you almost get 2 extra batsmen when playing against them.

 

[kyear2]

That's an interesting point. If the West Indies fast-bowling line-up is getting a new ball every 55 x 8-ball overs (73 x 6-ball overs) then you'd have to favour Lloyd's team slightly I think.

So to even things up - let's assume that the 6 Test series will be played using 2013 rules and 2013 equipment (body armour).

Who would win now?

Assuming we are using most of todays dead pitches as well? Probably a drawn series.
We assume that Bradman et al would use "body armour", but Viv has access to helmets, arm guards ect and never used them and he faced the best of his and most any other eras either in test or first class/county cricket and he never needed them.
Additionally Marshall and Ambrose played their entire careers after WSC that intoduced helmets and "body armour" to the game, never slowed them down much. MM still scared the daylight out of people.

 

[Coronis]

Lindwall and Miller were no slouches with the ball either.

 

[kyear2]

Never intimated that they were.

 

[watson]

I'd like to question the orthodoxy that makes Adam Gilchrist the first choice keeper for the bulk of people who select ATG World teams.

From what I can gather, the majority opinion in cricketing literature is that Alan Knott is the best wicket-keeper of all time. In terms of pure skill he is the 'doyen' of the art - as Dickie Bird puts it.

I'm sure that Adam Gilchrist was an excellent gloveman, but still not quite up to the standard of Alan Knott. Gilchrist was a better batsman, but I would suggest not that much better. Knott's ability to cope with a battery of Australian and West Indian fast bowlers during the 1970s was better than many top-order batsman of the time. Mike Brearley called Knott a 'genius' for good reason.

There is also the point that the batsmanship of Gilchrist becomes less important, and kind of redundant, with Sobers batting at No.6, and either Imran or Marshall at No.8.

Therefore, I propose that Alan Knott should be the first choice keeper in an ATG World XI because each position in an ATG team should be represented by the best. And Knott was the best.

 

[fredfertang]

Therefore, I propose that Alan Knott should be the first choice keeper in an ATG World XI because each position in an ATG team should be represented by the best. And Knott was the best.

No disagreement here

 

[kyear2]

Isn't it comparable to Imran being included? Most would not consider Imran the third best fast bowler, but he is the best combination of bowler and batsman to fill the number eight slot. Similarily Gilly is the best combination of batting and wicket keeping skill, where the defecit in wicket keeping skill is relatively neglegible while being a potential game changer/ match winner batting at 7.

No problem though if someone prefers Knott for the spot. He is certainly worthy.